Number of Audit Days for AS9100C Surveillance Audit (20 employees)

[dfreligh]

Can anyone tell me how many audit days should be scheduled for an AS9100C surveillance audit? We are a small machine shop (20 employees), and we exclude design. Our recertification/ upgrade to rev. C was last year.

The AS9104-1 table I have says the day allocation for our surveillance audit should be 1.5 days, however, my CB is stating that it will be 2.5 days. When I questioned this, I received this response:

"...at this time (CB) is not accredited to AS9104. Therefore we cannot quote audit duration per the AS9104 chart.
Your audit duration for your 2013 twelve month surveillance audit will need to remain at 20 hours / 2.50 days."

I'm not sure how to respond, or whether I have any other options here other than to accept this answer and drop it. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[dv8shane]

From Guide 62 for ISO auditing Some factors requiring additional auditor time could be, as examples:
" Complicated logistics involving more than one building or location where work is
carried out. e.g., a separate Design Centre must be audited
Staff speaking in more than one language (requiring interpreter(s) or preventing individual auditors from working independently)
Very large site for number of employees (e.g., a timberland)
High degree of regulation (food and drugs, aerospace, nuclear power, etc.)
System covers highly complex processes or relatively high number of unique activities
Processes involve a combination of hardware, software, process, and service
Activities that require visiting temporary sites to confirm the activities of the permanent
site(s) whose management system is subject to certification/registration." From page 37 of the attachment in Al Rosen's post http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=135527&postcount=14
From what I can tell these and other things would apply to surveillance audits too. I have a 1 man shop and my audit time was 1.5 days on site plus 0.5 for reporting.

 

[AndyN]

From Guide 62 for ISO auditing Some factors requiring additional auditor time could be, as examples:
" Complicated logistics involving more than one building or location where work is
carried out. e.g., a separate Design Centre must be audited
Staff speaking in more than one language (requiring interpreter(s) or preventing individual auditors from working independently)
Very large site for number of employees (e.g., a timberland)
High degree of regulation (food and drugs, aerospace, nuclear power, etc.)
System covers highly complex processes or relatively high number of unique activities
Processes involve a combination of hardware, software, process, and service
Activities that require visiting temporary sites to confirm the activities of the permanent
site(s) whose management system is subject to certification/registration." From page 37 of the attachment in Al Rosen's post http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=135527&postcount=14
From what I can tell these and other things would apply to surveillance audits too. I have a 1 man shop and my audit time was 1.5 days on site plus 0.5 for reporting.

Sadly, Guide 62 is out of date and even IAF MD-5 doesn't deal with aerospace requirements for audit days

 

[gbcqc]

We are looking at our options due to our CB is going against the contract we signed and is adding an extra 1.5 days to our audit just for paperwork. So 2 days total for paperwork on top of audit days. I have appeal this to the CB with no response.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

"...at this time (CB) is not accredited to AS9104. Therefore we cannot quote audit duration per the AS9104 chart.
Your audit duration for your 2013 twelve month surveillance audit will need to remain at 20 hours / 2.50 days."

Obviously, the CB is accredited for AS9100 and must comply with AS9104A; otherwise, they could have not issued the AS9100 certificate.

What they mean is that they have not transitioned their AS accreditation to AS9104-1.

The process for estimating the audit days against AS9104A is to start it with the IAF MD5 document (as for an ISO 9001 audit), apply the proper reduction (i.e., non-design responsible) and additions (if any), after that, add the extra days from AS9104A table which mandates 1 additional day for annual surveillance audits of a company of 20 employees.

In order for an accurate estimation, we would need to know what would be the proper reductions and additions for your QMS.

 

[kiwisfly]

Hi dfreligh,
2.5 days for a 20 person machine shop without design does sound a bit high, but not too much so. I would have thought 2 days annually would have met the requirements of AS9104A following MD5 and additional aerospace requirement of 1 day.

All of the CB's need to transition their accreditation to AS9104/1 so the table you refer to (Table 2) shows 1.5 days for annual surveillance. Most CB's are adding reporting time so I would have thought you could expect a 2 day SV annually. Depending on the complexity of what you are machining, I would have thought 2 days was sufficient, this would include the reporting time.

Always remember, you are a customer of these services and you should exercise your right to negotiate with your supplier. Ask them to justify the 2.5 days, and if you don't agree then you always have the option of changing service providers.

What you should not do is just accept it and drop it, you obviously know how to find the tables in AS9104, I wonder if the person you were talking to does?? I encourage you to talk to your auditor or if no luck there, there are a few here in the forum who can help.

Cheers,

 

[gianni]

We have 20 people and have a similar situation. Our audit is scheduled for 2.5 days (2 on-site & 0.5 day off-site). I just completed training in Dec '12 and was informed the following: The duration of an assessment is as agreed between the organization being assessed and the CB, using MD-5 and AS9104 (A) Table 2. They are supposed to be releasing new tables and replaced by AS9104-1 (our instructor said they had released but he did not have copy yet - that's how new it was). This was actually on our test so i know it is accurate. You can ask your CB for the tables they used. Our instructor showed us this table and I confirmed for our size company this to be correct. MD-5 may say 1.5 days for your size and the AS table indicates 1 additional day. Now the AS9104-1 has the one table. I hope this helps and is accurate. I am going by what I was just trained since it was on the certification test.

 

[dsanabria]

We have 20 people and have a similar situation. Our audit is scheduled for 2.5 days (2 on-site & 0.5 day off-site). I just completed training in Dec '12 and was informed the following: The duration of an assessment is as agreed between the organization being assessed and the CB, using MD-5 and AS9104 (A) Table 2. They are supposed to be releasing new tables and replaced by AS9104-1 (our instructor said they had released but he did not have copy yet - that's how new it was). This was actually on our test so i know it is accurate. You can ask your CB for the tables they used. Our instructor showed us this table and I confirmed for our size company this to be correct. MD-5 may say 1.5 days for your size and the AS table indicates 1 additional day. Now the AS9104-1 has the one table. I hope this helps and is accurate. I am going by what I was just trained since it was on the certification test.

See attached table 2 (AS9104/1)

Published 2012-01

Note: registrar can not use until they register to it.