Objecting to Registrar Audit Non-conformances

J
#31
I believe they did mention the appeal process both in the opening and closing meeting, but I choose to fight before it can get to an appeal.

I had a AS9100B surveillance audit last week. One auditor wanted to write a NC for not internal auditing every process in the system within the last year. I asked where is it required that audits must be conducted annually, because it is not in the standard. Six months ago I took a hit on the same issue as I had just adopted a messed up system and was in the process of revamping it, so it was not a big deal to me. I'm in a very smalls shop and know where our issues are. My audit schedule shows my rationale for pushing some internal audits out. Filling out records to make an external auditor happy is not my idea of value added.

He claimed it was in our contract (via standard polices) with the registrar. As strange as I thought that would be, I printed off a copy of their policies from our account on their website. He was not able to find it there, nor could I. He then claimed that it was in the signed contract, and I didn't have a copy handy. Ended up in a closed door meeting with the lead auditor, who then asked why I was being so difficult. I basically said, they make me produce evidence my system complies to the standard, I am simply asking for evidence that the requirement exists. If they could produce the requirement, I would be happy to accept the NC.

He decided to "give me a break" and not write it, but he would get me the information that showed the requirement later. Then he said he could also write a NC because one of the auditors took their notes in pencil, and since it was a record and that was not allowed. Thought he was going to explode when I asked where that requirement was. :lol:
Great Post...And good for you.
I'd be interested to hear if he ever produces a "signed contract" with the auditing stipulation in it....
As for the "Pencil" issue, I can't see where "notes" in pencil should be a problem since notes do not constitute a "report", but I could see an auditor possibly making and observation, certainly not a finding.

Which brings me to my central reason for this post.
Why is it that some auditors think that everything that bothers them requires a NC? I've been out of the loop for a while, but the last time I checked, the auditor could write and "observation". Things like an length of Audit cycle, or using pencil for audit notes might be worth noting in an observation (depending on the specifics), but unless something can be clearly shown as not conforming to the Standard (chapter and verse), there should not be a NC written.

Peace
James
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
T

tomvehoski

#32
Great Post...And good for you.
I'd be interested to hear if he ever produces a "signed contract" with the auditing stipulation in it....
As for the "Pencil" issue, I can't see where "notes" in pencil should be a problem since notes do not constitute a "report", but I could see an auditor possibly making and observation, certainly not a finding.

Which brings me to my central reason for this post.
Why is it that some auditors think that everything that bothers them requires a NC? I've been out of the loop for a while, but the last time I checked, the auditor could write and "observation". Things like an length of Audit cycle, or using pencil for audit notes might be worth noting in an observation (depending on the specifics), but unless something can be clearly shown as not conforming to the Standard (chapter and verse), there should not be a NC written.

Peace
James
My registrar will no longer write observations - just NCs. I'm fine with that - less paperwork for me. I guess I just get verbal observations now. I'm still waiting on the one valid NC (one gage out of cal) and the audit report.

Could be a power trip, misinterpretation of the standard, ignorance, etc. It was apparent this auditor didn't care for me questioning his knowledge/authority. I was just waiting for him to push the pencil issue since "it can be changed" so I could ask if the backspace and delete functions on his laptop had been disabled for the report he was writing. :notme:
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#33
Check your manual or audit program or audit procedures to make sure you guys didn't say something like "We will audit our system.....annually"
 
T

tomvehoski

#34
Check your manual or audit program or audit procedures to make sure you guys didn't say something like "We will audit our system.....annually"
Nope. He never even cracked our procedures book to check. Just one of the many reasons I have no faith in the 3rd party registration scheme any more.
 
J

JaneB

#35
... we debated requesting a new auditor a decided not to instead taking the wait and see approach. the next audit was much better and the auditor had obviously had their wrist slapped and received retraining.

In retrospect it may have been a mistake not to change as we completely lost trust in the auditor and I'm sure this was to the detriment of future audits.
Yes.
I am too new to the world of quality and industry to have any experience outside of my own CB/NB and so have no ability to judge their performance.
Often the case. You've been given lots of very good advice from people who aren't, to which I would add, better to be proactive (prevent the problem) than reactive (deal with it once arisen).
For example:
Are you aware that you can change your auditor to find a better fit?

If the auditor doesn't possess the competencies of being able to explain 'why something is', then you shouldn't have to pay for it. Pride has no place in this service - it's a matter of being objective and showing evidence why they have something to report. Often they don't, so when 'challenged', they get defensive. If the auditor has facts, they don't need to do anything else but draw your attention to them!

Ask for a change of auditor. Tell your CB why and move on.
Surely, your CB has more than one auditor that is qualified to audit your industry? I have had few problems in the past 10 years, but prior to that I kept a list of every auditor, along with my own evaluation of them. If someone I didn't think was a proper fit for us was assigned, I would contact the registrar and ask them to assign a different auditor.
Yup - that's what I do with clients. There are some (individual) auditors from reasonable CBs that I just won't have for example.

The advice I'd offer a client in this situation: ask for a different auditor, and explain why. Refuse (politely) to have that auditor back. Ever. Someone who behaves like that, wrist slapped or not, is not someone you want auditing you - and who wants an auditor they don't have confidence in?. You are supposed to get some value from the audit process, not have it be a wearing process in itself. Never 'just put up with it' - certification is a service business, and they could and should do better. Others do.

That's the first recourse. If the new auditor is no better, perhaps time to start thinking about a better CB. Believe me, they are out there, and the difference between an 'ordinary' (euphemism) and a good one is enormous! Is it really expensive to change? Are you sure? Here it costs absolutely nothing to change your CB.
From discussions with other colleagues there is certainly a range of good NB's down to a few where I look at the CE mark and question whether it should really have been applied.
Sounds about par.
 
J

JaneB

#36
Nope. He never even cracked our procedures book to check. Just one of the many reasons I have no faith in the 3rd party registration scheme any more.
Pity. But there are still lotsa good auditors and good CBs out there who unfortunately get tarred by this kind of bad experience. (A bit like some of us consultants also having our reputation damaged by the bad ones out there).

The trick is to hunt out the good ones, as one would with any supplier. Don't accept any less.
 
#37
Nope. He never even cracked our procedures book to check. Just one of the many reasons I have no faith in the 3rd party registration scheme any more.
Why condemn the whole registration scheme because of a couple of auditors/incidents? In your dealings with your auditor, did you CB get any feedback? Just as with other suppliers, are you telling us that if you had a bad batch of raw materials, all supplier are poor? That's what it sounds like!
 
T

tomvehoski

#38
Why condemn the whole registration scheme because of a couple of auditors/incidents? In your dealings with your auditor, did you CB get any feedback? Just as with other suppliers, are you telling us that if you had a bad batch of raw materials, all supplier are poor? That's what it sounds like!
Not just this one incident. Goes back 10+ years of consulting and going through many audits with many registrars. I've seen good and bad, but it is impossible to separate the two from a distance. Auditors can range from horrible to best in class within the same CB, yet everyone gets the same certificate on the wall.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#39
Not just this one incident. Goes back 10+ years of consulting and going through many audits with many registrars. I've seen good and bad, but it is impossible to separate the two from a distance. Auditors can range from horrible to best in class within the same CB, yet everyone gets the same certificate on the wall.
Even the person with the lowest passing grade in med school is still called Doctor.
 
T

tomvehoski

#40
Even the person with the lowest passing grade in med school is still called Doctor.
Very true, but I think every med student gets more scrutiny than a single witness audit a year (or is it three years?) to earn/keep their license.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
M AS9100D Registrar pre-audit requirements AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 15
G 0 non conformities in registrar audits over 4 years Management Review Meetings and related Processes 12
M Do AS9100 Registrar Auditors have nonconformity quotas? General Auditing Discussions 18
J Conflict of Interest Registrar/Notified Body/Testing House Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 4
R Change Notification - Registrar vs Notified body ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 1
Robert Stanley Which Registrar Should I Choose for ISO 9001:2015 registration? Registrars and Notified Bodies 10
E Choosing an ISO 9001 registrar with auditors familiar with our industry Registrars and Notified Bodies 10
L Audit boundaries - Is a Registrar permitted to audit a company's QMS by visiting their suppliers? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 26
Jen Kirley Is your registrar (CB) accredited? ASQ, ANAB, UKAS, IAF, IRCA, Exemplar Global and Related Organizations 9
K Seeking ISO 13485 Registrar Recommendations Registrars and Notified Bodies 15
P Notify Registrar of Escalation letter IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1
M New AS9100 Registrar - Recommendations for Transfer Registrars and Notified Bodies 3
M Notifying Registrar of Significant QMS changes ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 2
A ISO 9001:2015 registrar Auditor requesting copies of procedure prior to audit ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 24
N Does anyone know a registrar that offers both ISO 9001 and ISO 17020? Registrars and Notified Bodies 6
S Certification Body, Registrar, Notified Body - What is the difference? Registrars and Notified Bodies 3
1 ISO Registrar with waste water treatment experience Registrars and Notified Bodies 1
D How can a company transfer their AS certificate from a suspended AS91XX registrar? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 4
P Delay in IATF 16949 Certification from Registrar Registrars and Notified Bodies 10
M Should Potential Customer Complaint Outcome Define Registrar NC Rating? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
Q Is a Domain Registrar a Critical Supplier? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 11
F Which Medical Device Standard Registrar would you recommend? CE Marking (Conformité Européene) / CB Scheme 5
WCHorn Transfering certificate from Registrar "A" to Registrar "B" ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
W Registrar Practices - Audit Plan with Scope, Dates/Times, etc. ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 5
D Breach of Contract from Registrar (Auditor Payment Issue) Registrars and Notified Bodies 18
V Under what circumstances will a Registrar Audit a Company? (ISO 13485 - Canada) Canada Medical Device Regulations 5
M Contacting a "Must Use" (aka Sole Source) Supplier's Registrar Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 6
C Registrar Charges Per CAR Written Registrars and Notified Bodies 18
Q Supplier evaluation for registrar? Registrars and Notified Bodies 2
A AS9100 Registrar Expense Report Practices Registrars and Notified Bodies 3
M Answered; Registrar Dropped ISO 14971 Certification Program; What Now? ISO 14971 - Medical Device Risk Management 4
R Registrar Annual Management Fee Registrars and Notified Bodies 4
L Registrar Audit Report Length General Auditing Discussions 6
A AATT Aerospace Auditor Requirements for an AS9100 Registrar AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 10
E Consultant Person who implemented ALSO the Registrar Auditor? Consultants and Consulting 17
L Registrar Audit Scope and Limits ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 9
B TS 16949 Auditor Availability and Registrar Scheduling Delays Registrars and Notified Bodies 4
S QSB+ revoked - Notify registrar, what's next? Customer and Company Specific Requirements 3
P Which TS 16949 registrar do you use? Registrars and Notified Bodies 4
V Our Registrar has been Suspended AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 5
A Looking for an ISO 9001 Registrar in Bucks County, PA, USA Registrars and Notified Bodies 2
N Second Registrar Visit to Confirm Major Nonconformances Fixed ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11
T Registrar Gap Assessments AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
M How to find a Good Registrar (Certification Body) for ISO TS 16949 certification Registrars and Notified Bodies 3
S Which is the "Best" Registrar Accreditation Body? Registrars and Notified Bodies 3
R "Use of Registrar's Logo" question ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 5
R Registrar Finding - Hair Nets and Beard Covers ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 9
S ISO 9001 Documents for Submission to the Registrar ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 78
MarilynJ6354 American Global Standards Virtual Registrar ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
C ISO 14001 and OHSAS 18001 Registrar Auditor Credentials Career and Occupation Discussions 8

Similar threads

Top Bottom