Objective Evidence of Internal Auditors having Audit Clause 4.1.

C

ChrissieO

#1
One of our other divisions has been asked in their BSI external audit to show objective evidence of internal auditors asking questions during the audits from this clause (4.1).

I am a little confused as to what the auditor was aiming at, e.g. during an internal audit of "Order Picking Process" how would the internal auditor demonstrate this.

Discuss................................

Chrissie x
 
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harry

Trusted Information Resource
#2
I recognized that this is a question from somebody else. Still, the standard practice/advice is to seek clarification before the auditor gets out of the door.

By the way, is it just a query or an NC.
 
Last edited:

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Leader
Admin
#3
This clause is a requirement of management and is also audited at every process

a) determine the processes needed for the quality management system and their application throughout the organization (see 1.2),

are they determined?

b) determine the sequence and interaction of these processes,

are they determined?

c) determine criteria and methods needed to ensure that both the operation and control of these processes are effective,

are they determined?

d) ensure the availability of resources and information necessary to support the operation and monitoring of these processes,

every one always complains that they do not have enough, is this true?


e) monitor, measure where applicable, and analyse these processes, and

do they ?

f) implement actions necessary to achieve planned results and continual improvement of these processes.
do they succed



To ask for evidence needs someone to understand the requirements.


This is the basis of the standard. If you audit in a process manner then all these questions are part of the audit
Show me evidence:mad:
Dear Mr Auditor

Here I audited the process map, here I checked the monitoring of processes, etc etc etc.
 
#4
One of our other divisions has been asked in their BSI external audit to show objective evidence of internal auditors asking questions during the audits from this clause (4.1).

I am a little confused as to what the auditor was aiming at, e.g. during an internal audit of "Order Picking Process" how would the internal auditor demonstrate this.

Discuss................................

Chrissie x
Your BSI auditor is somewhat off base, since internal auditors are not supposed to be auditing to the requirement of ISO 9001.......haven't the BSI auditors learned the process approach? Didn't this auditor attend class given by Randy:lmao::notme::mg:

Your auditors aren't required to demonstrate this!
 
C

ChrissieO

#5
Your BSI auditor is somewhat off base, since internal auditors are not supposed to be auditing to the requirement of ISO 9001.......haven't the BSI auditors learned the process approach? Didn't this auditor attend class given by Randy:lmao::notme::mg:

Your auditors aren't required to demonstrate this!
Totally agree with you Andy, just wanted to know what others thought.

Chrissie x
 
C

Cornwap

#6
Hi Chrissie,

I wouldn't expect to see each item in 4.1 to be asked as a seperate question in it, but they are the fundamental requirementals that a quality management system should meet as Howard has pointed out.

I could therefore understand if your auditor wanted to know how your internal audit considered, for example, whether the defined criteria and methods for the operation and control of your Order Picking Process were effective. I wouldn't necessarily expect that specific question to be in an internal audit but I don't see it as unreasonable to expect an internal auditor to know how and where it was covered.

Best regards
Phil



However they are phrased as questions
 

Stijloor

Leader
Super Moderator
#7
One of our other divisions has been asked in their BSI external audit to show objective evidence of internal auditors asking questions during the audits from this clause (4.1).

I am a little confused as to what the auditor was aiming at, e.g. during an internal audit of "Order Picking Process" how would the internal auditor demonstrate this.

Discuss................................

Chrissie x
Chrissie,

I view Clause 4.1 as an "executive summary" of the Standard. A nice summary of what is required for the QMS. The detailed requirements are in clauses 5-6-7-8. Too often, auditors get too wrapped up in the individual pieces of the standard, rather than looking at the processes. Unfortunately, the Auditees don't know any better. Old habits die hard...

Stijloor.
 
A

amanbhai

#10
Chrissie,

I view Clause 4.1 as an "executive summary" of the Standard. A nice summary of what is required for the QMS. The detailed requirements are in clauses 5-6-7-8. Too often, auditors get too wrapped up in the individual pieces of the standard, rather than looking at the processes. Unfortunately, the Auditees don't know any better. Old habits die hard...

Stijloor.
What do you say about other subclauses of clause 4?:confused:
 
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