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Objective Evidence of Internal Auditors having Audit Clause 4.1.

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Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#13
It totally depends on the process you are auditing but in my opinion 4.2.3 and 4.2.4 should be verified in ALL audits

Chrissie
Not necessarily.. Let's assume that you have audited these two processes a few times, and no nonconformities were found, would you continue to audit these activities at the same frequency? Think about it; you could have a perfect document and records control process in place and still ship crappy product. So where do you think the main focus of the audit should be? Exactly, on all processes that have a direct impact on your customers. I always audit documents and records as part of a key process.

Stijloor.
 
C

ChrissieO

#14
Not necessarily.. Let's assume that you have audited these two processes a few times, and no nonconformities were found, would you continue to audit these activities at the same frequency? Think about it; you could have a perfect document and records control process in place and still ship crappy product. So where do you think the main focus of the audit should be? Exactly, on all processes that have a direct impact on your customers. I always audit documents and records as part of a key process.

Stijloor.
The key focus should ALWAYS be on the process but in many areas of our responsibility we use temporary work force and our work instructions etc are our key training and guidence documents so I would always expect them to be checked all be it in more detail in some areas than others.

If the process was deemed to be "crappy" as you put it, I would then want to see the WIs etc and if they reflected a "crappy" process then an need for improvement would be raised if the process was different to the documentation I would want to know why?

WIs, SOPs etc are not always how things should be done and do not always reflect the best process and if you find a good process that doesn't match the documentation you would also raise a finding as to why?

It can be then become a chicken and egg situation, which came first? The process or the documentation....................

Chrissie x
 
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trainerbob

#15
Process, Process, Process, Process, Process, - when will we finally understand processes and their linkages??? THEY DEFINE OUR ORGANIZATIONS. THEY ARE WHAT WE AUDIT!!!!!!
 
C

ChrissieO

#16
Process, Process, Process, Process, Process, - when will we finally understand processes and their linkages??? THEY DEFINE OUR ORGANIZATIONS. THEY ARE WHAT WE AUDIT!!!!!!
I totally agree with you but the point I was making is that, I have seen some audit reports in the past when the process did not truely reflect the procedure and the auditor has raised a finding that the process does not reflect the WI/SOP my question to the auditor then is always, which was the better process?................your documentation should always reflect your best process and the process should not be in place just because the documentation says it should.

Chrissie
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#19
The key focus should ALWAYS be on the process but in many areas of our responsibility we use temporary work force and our work instructions etc are our key training and guidence documents so I would always expect them to be checked all be it in more detail in some areas than others.

If the process was deemed to be "crappy" as you put it, I would then want to see the WIs etc and if they reflected a "crappy" process then an need for improvement would be raised if the process was different to the documentation I would want to know why?

WIs, SOPs etc are not always how things should be done and do not always reflect the best process and if you find a good process that doesn't match the documentation you would also raise a finding as to why?

It can be then become a chicken and egg situation, which came first? The process or the documentation....................

Chrissie x
The question was about 4.2.3 and 4.2.4, which are about control of documents and control of records, respectively. Expanding on Stijloor's point, If you've verified in previous audits that the controls are adequate--there's no evidence of violation of the either of the two clauses--you should be able to focus on other things. Keep in mind that the two clauses don't address the efficacy of the documentation, just the control of it.

You should use the process documentation to guide you through a process audit, and if you see that the process isn't operating in accordance with the documentation, you've discovered something that bears further investigation. That has nothing specifically to do with 4.2.3. and 4.2.4, however.

ETA: There should be something in "the organization's" own documentation that reflects the requirements of 4.2.3 and 4.2.4, and if there is a violation, the nonconformity should be written against your own requirements, not the requirements of the standard.
 
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trainerbob

#20
Amen to that Jim. Back to basics - Do what we say and say what we do. Your organization needs to determine the best way - not your outside auditor!!
 
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