Obligation to accept customer audits?

[sistoiv]

You are correct in some or all of your assertions (correct in all the ones that I know true vs false in)...

IMO, these words should be fought against any and every time they show up anywhere in a business relationship. These words and their synonyms (must, shall, ought, should, ... ) make more enemies and break more relationships than any others.

I agree with you. Tell it to the ISO men or similar (standards are PRIVATE rules made by PRIVATE bodies).

 

[Ninja]

Tell it to the ISO men

Been there done that...as have many here...

The repeated phrase is "show me the shall"...{in the standard} is assumed...

 

[qualprod]

Good morning.
I begin by saying one opinion of mine: a lot of quality consultants or quality auditor are too theoretical men. They forget that companies have to bill and make profits, first of all. And they often forget that certifications and ISO standards are private rules not laws neither public regulations.
Finished introduction.
What do you think about a supplier (certified) which does not allow customers to perform audits?
OK, it's not "fine" but a customer is not a public inspection body: if a supplier does not want to be audited by customers, a customer cannot force him.
The only thing it can do is stop sending orders (if it can)
Am I right?

It is about your wishes.
Need the relationship with such customer? because you have important profits? well , you need to allow to be audited under
a reasonable basis, say 1 or at most two yearly, but it depends mainly of the customer´s needs.
If you reject the audit, for sure , this customer will try to look for another supplier, as simple as that.
On the other hand, if this customer place you very few work orders (say 5 at year) very little profit, and don´t see a
good relationship in the near future and beside of that want to audit you 2 or three times a year, then....
You might start to reject some audits.

Hope this helps.

 

[sistoiv]

If you reject the audit, for sure , this customer will try to look for another supplier, as simple as that.

No, it depends on how much it's easy and useful for customer to find another source.

 

[Ninja]

If you reject the audit, for sure , this customer will try to look for another supplier, as simple as that.

No, it depends on how much it's easy and useful for customer to find another source.

I submit that it also depends on HOW you reject the audit.

"No, you can't come. You aren't welcome here." Likely lose them, just a matter of how long to find a replacement.

"We've been running this process for 10yrs without issue...how about auditing every 3yrs instead of every year". goes a whole lot softer...
"What is it that you are looking for in the proposed audit? Is there a current issue, or are we just going through the motions for company policy?"
"If there is an issue, let's handle it immediately instead of waiting for an audit."
"The proposed audit is very disruptive in a company our size. You already know that we are a 20person company...can we define the scope to be handled in one man-day? We are concerned that the audit itself will put quality at risk due to the disruption and burden on manpower for the 6 man-days you currently demand."

Many ways to lessen the hit through cooperation and communication. "No" by itself should not be considered an option.

 

[Ninja]

I took a manufacturing engineer to dinner during a multi-day audit, with a proposed follow up multi-day audit to follow 6mnths later.

We did math over dessert...
{Made up numbers coming}:
You buy 1000 parts per year
Your purchasing agent pushes for lowest price and calls to lower the price every month.
Purchasing would be horrified if they thought we made a full $1 profit on each.
That's $1000 profit per year on the high side.
We've spent more than $1000 already today if you include man-hours, the lunch we provided and this dinner.

The math says: audits have to decrease, you have to buy more, or the part price has to increase...what options do you think I am overlooking?

 

[qualprod]

No, it depends on how much it's easy and useful for customer to find another source.

Sistoiv, the relationship with a customer most of the times it depends of: you are the only, the cheaper, best product, compliments on some agreements (one of them , could be audits, some standard compliment ), one or ,all are reasons to continue the relationship.
If one of several reasons are not being in compliment, naturally.... the customer will look in other direction.
And remember not always the customer ask you audits by itself, a lot of time audits are required by their customers, if this point
is an agreement with their customers , guess what?

 

[sistoiv]

I know that what I'm going to say is a bit unpopolar but it's the truth: often it's just maximum boss (Ceo or Owner) who simply does not want. Without other theoretical discussions. After quality manager has to invent a reason...

 

[Ninja]

often it's just maximum boss (Ceo or Owner) who simply does not want. Without other theoretical discussions. After quality manager has to invent a reason...

You are spot on here.

The "no" is for business reasons (read NPAT)...that is the purview of the CEO among others
The managing of the relationship as it comes to quality often falls to the Quality Manager if no specific relationship manager is in place.

The "No" comes from the top, the tact comes from elsewhere.
{Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy} -attributed to many, including Isaac Asimov and Dag Hammarskjold -

 

[Jen Kirley]

Good morning.
I begin by saying one opinion of mine: a lot of quality consultants or quality auditor are too theoretical men. They forget that companies have to bill and make profits, first of all. And they often forget that certifications and ISO standards are private rules not laws neither public regulations.
Finished introduction.
What do you think about a supplier (certified) which does not allow customers to perform audits?
OK, it's not "fine" but a customer is not a public inspection body: if a supplier does not want to be audited by customers, a customer cannot force him.
The only thing it can do is stop sending orders (if it can)
Am I right?

What does the contract say? Did the organization sign a contract with the customer? As was stated above, these contracts very often include a clause describing the right to audit upon request. If the clause is present and the audit is refused, the organization typically follows established processes to change the supplier's approval status.