Obsolete Documents - The Need for a History File

[bobsedon]

We are placing our procedures and other documents on our company intranet. We are being told by a trusted source that we need to have a file for obsolete documents. It does not make sense to me to keep a document that is not correct. Our docuemnts have effective dates, revised dates, and approval signatures. The revisions are highlighted in yellow so people can see what changed. Why can't we just delete the obsolete documents?

We are work towards registration to make our process better not because a customer is forcing us. We want to be more efficient and this sounds like a step in the wrong direction.

Everyone at our company is new to ISO9000 and we need a second opinion. Any guidence will be appreiciated.

Thanks,
Bob

 

[mshell]

We manage our system just as you have described. We replace the older electronic version with the newly approved document. It is of no added value to our organization to maintain obsolete QMS documentation. Not to mention the fact that it could create a document control nightmare.

 

[Rob Nix]

To second Mshell's post, we also use an intranet system. All previous (obsolete) revision levels are discarded (i.e. deleted). I also always follow a change with a global announcement to destroy any hard copies that may have been made.

The ONLY time you must save, in an archive of some sort, older, obsolete documents is when required by the customer, by law, or if it is in your own best interests to do so. If there is not a valid reason for keeping them, destroy them. NOTE: QS-9000 4.5.2.c states "any obsolete documents retained for legal and/or knowledge preservation purposes are suitably identified".

 

[mitsu11]

I think I understand what your trusted source was getting at, and I hope I can explain it properly. Let's use a drawing example, because I think we can all relate to that.
* Drawing 123 is authorized level A in 1999.
* In 2000, the same drawing is revised to level B to change a diameter. Appropriately, the change is marked in the body of the drawing.
* In 2001, the drawing is revised to level C to change a length. The diameter change mark is removed and the length is marked instead.
* In 2002, the part is obsoleted and replaced with part and drawing 456.

I think we have all worked in places where the changes were not marked as well as they should have been (drawings OR procedures). Given this is one of those cases, how can you isolate the failure on a part manufactured in 2000 based on the above information? Heck, if you have already removed the obsolete (not history) document entirely, then you cannot. If it is history (not obsolete), you may be able to derive the entire history from the latest revision, but not necessarily.

Then the only way to find the print that was current in 2000 is to visit your history files. One large company I worked for still has rooms upon storage facilities upon rooms filled with historical documents for just this kind of reference.

Procedures are no different. Your C revision has the change marked between it and B revision. What happened between B revision and A revision? If your history is described well, you have no problem. If it is not, well then...

One suggestion I would like to offer, if you do decide to keep obsolete and history documents around for viewing, is to be sure to mark them as such with a watermark or footnote or something. Then you do not need to worry that they will be used as active documents; only for historical reference.

 

[Al Dyer]

Very good Rob,

But who is to say that a document revision must be kept? Government/Regulatory etc... documents are available online along with all applicable revisions.

Is it the responsibility of a company to keep all revisions, of all documents on file, even if they are not of in-house design/purpose?

Are the "rules" enacted considering whether or not a company even has a computer? (They may use an "outside" computer source!! As in ASN's)

Personally, in a past life we always kept a database of all documents new and revised, even when we were not required to do so.

Can any company "really" keep a revised copy of customer required documents/regulations?
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Just my usual bonehead questions!!!!

Al...

 

[Greg B]

Try this software

Hi Bob,
Here is a thread that I offered up last year regarding a document system that is intranet based. It has many benefits not the least of which is that it is FREE. Yes it is freeware. It maintains all of our current documents and when we put up a change it automatically files away our old copy. It is very simple to use and saves me a vast amount of time in document management.

https://elsmar.com/elsmarqualityforum/threads/6418/

I have also written two guide books for 'Users' and 'Adminstrators' if you would like them (I have also placed them in the cove attachements) below:

User Guide:
https://elsmar.com/elsmarqualityforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1621
Administrators Guide:
https://elsmar.com/elsmarqualityforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1620

I must also make the claim that I have no affiliation to this software other than the fact that my company has been using it for nearly two years and have never had a problem with it. The author also constantly updates the product via his website and it is always improving.

If I did not have this software I would not bother keeping old documents. My predecessor did and I inherited a 20 foot container of archives. A positive for keeping documents is that people reviewing docs can see what the changes have been in the past.

Greg B

 

[bobsedon]

Thanks everyone!

Thanks for all your input. I now understand why you would want to save an obsolete document. We need to determine which docs/type of docs we should save.

This was my first post here and it turned out to be a great experience.

 

[Claes Gefvenberg]

This was my first post here.

So it was. Welcome to the Cove, Bob , and keep posting.

/Claes

 

[Rob Nix]

This was my first post here

OH, That's right! How'd we miss that! . WELCOME TO THE COVE, BOB!