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OHSAS 18001 is not an ISO standard yet. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Now it is! March 2018

Randy

Super Moderator
#41
Re: BS OHSAS 18001 is not an ISO standard...!

The love of the ILO document is indicitive of one who does not have to committ to anything...The ILO document doesn't have any requirements, it has only suggestions and recommendations...as does the BS8800 (Which by the way formed the basis for 18001)

And yes, you are far from alone about the Z10 because 1 whole company in the United States, which probably has 20 million or so business entities has chosen to use it as a way to demonstrate their undying committment to OHS by seeking a 3rd party certification.

It has not once been stated that 18001 is better than anything else, except for the ILO-OHS which in itself has no strength nor mandates, the message has and continues to be 18001 is the most widely recognized and used method to systematically manage health and safety risk in the workplace.
 
#42
Re: BS OHSAS 18001 is not an ISO standard...!

Hello Randy !

It did not have escaped me you were related to an organization having direct interests in the diffusion of national BS OHSAS 18001 ...
Now that is verging on a cheap shot. You will find that Randy hass built up a lot of respect on the Cove for his views. One thing he is not known for is keeping his views to himself! :lol:

He may be a part of the organization that developed OHSAS but I am sure he would say if the model was flawed.
... (ISO 14001 inspired in the beginning, but ISO did not wish to create at the international level with the profit of the ILO).
Now just because ISO hasn't yet developed a management systems standard for H & S doesn't mean there isn't demand for it (including within some ISO participating countries). The standards development process requires a clear majority in favour and is based on demonstration of need. As more organizations seek OHSAS certification the need is more clearly demonstrated.
If I would be in such a situation about ILO-OSH I believe you would say: “Henria, your opinion is not completely objective to observe and compare the various appearing OHSMS standards as a specialist in the prevention of occupational H&S”.
I'm personally not clear what you are trying to say here, Henria. Are you saying that people will accuse you of bias because you are involved in H & S? :confused:

In addition the British standard is indeed very known at international level but it’s not a proof of superiority of this H&S model (rather force of its promotion by certification market) and ILO-OSH reputation is growing (if not, why BS OHSAS would take it as reference?).
OK. We know you are against OHSAS as the definitive model but don't yet know what you see as being wrong - as Steel Maiden has said perhaps you can outline where you think the problems are?

Another thing, I don’t “hate” BS OHSAS 18001, but I “prefer” ILO-OSH for already evoked reasons (Z10 or BS 8800 seems to me also excellent). And I know I am far from being alone in this case on our planet.
I can't speak for Z10 as I haven't read it.The others I agree provide good guidance for a H & S management system. As Randy has mentioned they are not requirements standards but nevertheless are extremely useful. The guidance and requirements standards are not mutually exclusive. You can design a system around all the best practice and it will be OHSAS compliant (should you wish to go for certification).

Finally I think that it is necessary to always looking around us the various proposals offered on a given subject and benefitting from opinions of other professionals concerned. A specialized Internet forum is a good means to have this kind of vision. It is what I endeavour to do, “discussing” ideas without “discussing” people.

Cordially.
Agreed! :agree:
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#43
Re: BS OHSAS 18001 is not an ISO standard...!

It's too bad that Henria doesn't know that one of the organizations that was stongly opposed to the ISO developing an OHS standard was the representative for the USA, ANSI - American National Standards Institute on the basis that there are already too many standards, it would be burdensom for business and employee organizations (unions and such) opposed such a document...

I'd also wager that Henria doesn't know or has failed to recognize that the Z10 document is published by none other than the American National Standards Institute - ANSI, the same organization that opposed an ISO OHS standard and it was ANSI along with the AIHA - American Industrial Hygeine Association that developed Z10 because of the "need" for an OHS standard.

AIHA-ANSI did use ILO-OSH as their guidance tool for the Z10 and there are some very good features that I personally like about Z10 that are much better than 18001, but Z10 does have weakness as does 18001. During the OHSAS18001:2007 revision process there were many comments made during the drafting ( I was a commentor) that some of the Z10 guidance/requirements be adopted as well and the 18001 committee also referenced the ILO-OSH during the revision work...I'll bet Henria didn't know that either. OHSAS 18001:2007 wasn't created in a dark vacum and the INTRODUCTION helps to illustrate this....


From the introduction of OHSAS 18001:2007...
The second edition of this OHSAS Standard is focused on clarification
of the first edition, and has taken due consideration of the provisions of
ISO 9001, ISO14001, ILO-OSH, and other OH&S management system
standards or publications
to enhance the compatibility of these
standards for the benefit of the user community.


Oh well..................:frust:
 
#44
Re: BS OHSAS 18001 is not an ISO standard...!

Hi SteelMaiden !

Me (specialist in OH&S prevention since more than 30 years) I have read the principal standards of OHSMS which I could identify. I compared them, and I preferred the international one for various reasons (i.e. his international and tripartite origin giving it a very great legitimacy compared to the employees; its professionalism of prevention and its character clarify makes it available even for the small entities…).

Moreover, my industrial group is french origin* but it is international too. Additional reason to adopt a truly international standard (which it reference frame of all the new national standards of OHSMS or improvement of old).

* note: AFNOR, our French organization of standardization, does not have national OHSMS standard but made promotion of the ILO-OSH.

I advise you the ILO-OSH, but ANSI Z10 and BS 8800 are excellent also (see mainly the appendices and tools).

You said “we have discussed the possibility of someday registering to one of them” but choice of an OHSMS standard concerns primarily the top management of your firm, and not the CB around. Moreover it is not necessary to be “registred” to choose and adopt a OHSMS model and progress in your company about OH&S: periodic auditing of your MS by a qualified and independent auditor (but not inevitably external) is a requirement of all the MS standards, but not the certification, even if many CB tend to induce or maintain confusion between audit and certification of a MS).

Best regards.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#45
Re: BS OHSAS 18001 is not an ISO standard...!

You're an expert on management systems and the 3rd party management system certification process?

I can easily understand using the ILO or BS8800 because neither one requires anything, they just say "should, should, should" over and over again. Should means "you don't hafta if you don't wanna":frust:

Yep, takes a bunch of committment.

Henria you need to understand that neither ILO-OSH or BS8800 mandate that an organization do anything...There has to be some type of disconnect here somewhere.:confused:
 
#46
Re: BS OHSAS 18001 is not an ISO standard...!

Hi Randy !

You said...

[FONT=&quot]"BS8800 (Which by the way formed the basis for 18001)[/FONT]"
You are right, BS OHSAS 18001:1996 is based on BS 8800:1996, saying more precisely BS OHSAS 18001:1996 is based on the part of BS 8800:1996 presented according to ISO 14001:1996, and not on its part presented according to HS (G) 65 (now disappeared part). This is why when we compare BS OHSAS 18001:1999 and ISO 14001:1996 we see the same thing.

[FONT=&quot]"The ILO document doesn't have any requirements, it has only suggestions and recommendations"[/FONT]
All MS standards are valid strictly voluntary… except the legal standards! Then which difference between choose a model which says to me “you must” or another wich says to me “you would have”?
Indeed:
- on the one hand why choose a voluntarily apply model which says to me “you would have” if I don't try to do it…?
- in addition even those who choose to voluntarily apply a model which says us “you must”, always don't do all that it would be necessary…
- finally, the only standard which can really says “you must” is the legal standard of our country !
- we can say that ILO-OSH (which as others is not a legal standard*) is more realistic while advising “you would have” than others which say “you must” but which is not obligatory legal application!
* I agree with you, no standard has of force or mandate as you says, except our national legal standards...(as OSHA).

I agree with you too when you said that british BS OHSAS 18001 [FONT=&quot] is the most widely used OHSMS standard. [/FONT]But it is not a reason necessary to choose it among the other available ones, because regarding management (it is its exclusive prerogative of the top management of each company) it's not a necessity to be “compatible” formally with the choice of other companies. But is not true for the compatibility of our industrial products with products of other companies (from this the interest of technical standards).

For my part when a partner (even if he choosed BS OHSAS 18001 without knowing ILO-OSH) is interested about my H&S management, he quickly understands what is ILO-OSH and reassured as much as if I had chosen a British, American or Russian OHSMS standard...

[FONT=&quot]I use one of your own sentence to say[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "It's too bad that [/FONT][FONT=&quot]You [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Randy [/FONT][FONT=&quot]doesn't know that [/FONT][FONT=&quot]two [/FONT][FONT=&quot]of the organizations that was stongly opposed to the ISO developing an OHS standard was the representative for USA and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]France[/FONT][FONT=&quot], ANSI [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and AFNOR"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]... [/FONT][FONT=&quot]USA and France (and some other contries refusing to vote OHSMS ISO creation)[/FONT] in same choose to developpe ILO-OSH with other countries through the International Labour Organization. All that is very coherent finally.

Very sincerely Randy I like to divide arguments with you (and the few others which also find interest on my subjects), that leads me to push my own reflexion or analysis on the development and the context of the OHSMS, but personally I don't have anything special to sell.

Cordially.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#47
Re: BS OHSAS 18001 is not an ISO standard...!

Wow:cool:

You really write nice. Thanks for the last, it was the clearest thing you have posted and good as well.

Yeah, you're right about the "voluntary" part of what we call the ISO MS standards. But when there is a "volunteer" that "volunteer" is accepting the whole nine yards (shalls), which except for some minor allowable exclusions become absolutes for that organization who "volunteers"

Except for the Z10,the other documents you mention do not have clearly written within them that strength....Each and every element of the ILO or BS8800 is optional for the organization.



I feel though like I need to aim downwind because my cuffs are starting to drip;)
 
#48
Re: BS OHSAS 18001 is not an ISO standard...!

Hi Paul !

I do not dispute the person of Randy, and I hope you notes I address to him (and others) with respect, but I have the right to put forward ideas and arguments different of him. My ideas and proposals are also respectable. Are they ?

You says [FONT=&quot]"The standards development process requires a clear majority in favour and is based on demonstration of need", [/FONT]I know that. I also know that almost ten years ago ISO voted "no" BS proposal to create ISO OHSMS standard. ISO refused too collaborate with ILO to ILO-OSH 2001 creation, what a pity ! In at this moment ISO don't want a third vote (in spite new BS proposals).

On the other hand, we know ILO collaborate to ISO 26000 drafting on social responsability (edition soon ?) with many ILO text quotations (of witch ILO-OSH 2001).

You says "Are you saying that people will accuse you of bias because you are involved in H & S?" about my sentence "If I would be in such a situation about ILO-OSH [as Randy about BS OHSAS 18001 for example] I believe you would say: “Henria, your opinion is not completely objective to observe and compare the various appearing OHSMS standards as a specialist in the prevention of occupational H&S”.

You did not understand me, because my English is not controlled. I wanted to say that if I had a direct personal interest dependent on a certain OHSMS standard (if I worked for example for a CB which recommanding only this standard) you will be able to doubt about my objectivity on its qualities compared to other standards. But I am not a CB, I am a H&S officer, I am just a user of OHSMS standards.

You said " [FONT=&quot]We know you are against OHSAS as the definitive model [/FONT]", I repete : I am not against BS OHSAS 18001, I am in favour of ILO-OSH, I prefere ILO-OSH, I vote for ILO-OSH, what else ? I choose ILo-OSH...

But you Paul, you are prefering BS OHSAS 18001 I think (right ?), I respect your choice, and I don't allow myself to say to you that you would be against ILO-OSH or ANSI Z10 or so and so...

You says " [FONT=&quot]You can design a system around all the best practice and it will be OHSAS compliant (should you wish to go for certification)" [/FONT]thanks ! I can say exactly the same with ILO-OSH ! And effectivly I adopte ILO-OSH in my company (corporate level) and help ours plants and subsidiary companies to design their local OHSMS and to progress with compliance to this international standard. Ours plants wish or not go for ILO-OSH certification (it's not my corporate requirement), and some of them go even from BS OHSAS certification to ILO-OSH certification !

Bye, it's late for me in France !
 
#49
Re: BS OHSAS 18001 is not an ISO standard...!

Hi Paul !

I do not dispute the person of Randy, and I hope you notes I address to him (and others) with respect, but I have the right to put forward ideas and arguments different of him. My ideas and proposals are also respectable. Are they ?
Sometimes your posts may be read as implying more than you probably mean.

You says [FONT=&quot]"The standards development process requires a clear majority in favour and is based on demonstration of need", [/FONT]I know that. I also know that almost ten years ago ISO voted "no" BS proposal to create ISO OHSMS standard. ISO refused too collaborate with ILO to ILO-OSH 2001 creation, what a pity ! In at this moment ISO don't want a third vote (in spite new BS proposals).
If you selectively quote then you miss the point.
Now just because ISO hasn't yet developed a management systems standard for H & S doesn't mean there isn't demand for it (including within some ISO participating countries). The standards development process requires a clear majority in favour and is based on demonstration of need. As more organizations seek OHSAS certification the need is more clearly demonstrated.
So what I said was just because there isn't a requirements standard for OH & S doesn't mean there won't be one. As more organisations around the word choose to go for certification then ISO may decide the current BS deserves to be adopted in its current or adapted form as an ISO requirements standard - there that's not so difficult, is it? :)

On the other hand, we know ILO collaborate to ISO 26000 drafting on social responsability (edition soon ?) with many ILO text quotations (of witch ILO-OSH 2001).

You says "Are you saying that people will accuse you of bias because you are involved in H & S?" about my sentence "If I would be in such a situation about ILO-OSH [as Randy about BS OHSAS 18001 for example] I believe you would say: “Henria, your opinion is not completely objective to observe and compare the various appearing OHSMS standards as a specialist in the prevention of occupational H&S”. You did not understand me, because my English is not controlled. I wanted to say that if I had a direct personal interest dependent on a certain OHSMS standard (if I worked for example for a CB which recommanding only this standard) you will be able to doubt about my objectivity on its qualities compared to other standards. But I am not a CB, I am a H&S officer, I am just a user of OHSMS standards.
I think I understand a bit better now. Randy and others are promoting certification to OHSAS 18001 above ANSI Z 10 (the two requirements standards). It may be because he works for BSI - I personally don't think so.

Nobody is putting ILO - OSH forward for certification as it is guidance - not requirements. Full stop - period - point! :)

You said " [FONT=&quot]We know you are against OHSAS as the definitive model [/FONT]", I repete : I am not against BS OHSAS 18001, I am in favour of ILO-OSH, I prefere ILO-OSH, I vote for ILO-OSH, what else ? I choose ILo-OSH...
We are in violent agreement. My question was why - you have not yet answered that question for me.

But you Paul, you are prefering BS OHSAS 18001 I think (right ?), I respect your choice, and I don't allow myself to say to you that you would be against ILO-OSH or ANSI Z10 or so and so...
My personal favourite OH & S management systems standard is the HSE's HS (G) 65 but it is not a requirements standard. I only know OHSAS as a requirements standard so (if pressed :D) will have to say it is my number one cast iron favourite!

You says " [FONT=&quot]You can design a system around all the best practice and it will be OHSAS compliant (should you wish to go for certification)" [/FONT]thanks ! I can say exactly the same with ILO-OSH ! And effectivly I adopte ILO-OSH in my company (corporate level) and help ours plants and subsidiary companies to design their local OHSMS and to progress with compliance to this international standard. Ours plants wish or not go for ILO-OSH certification (it's not my corporate requirement), and some of them go even from BS OHSAS certification to ILO-OSH certification !

Bye, it's late for me in France !
Again we are in violent agreement. If you design a good system it will meet any requirements standard and any guidance. That was my point!
 

Marc

Captain Nice
Staff member
Admin
#50
Re: BS OHSAS 18001 is not an ISO standard...!

"There is more than one way to skin a cat" my grandmother used to say.

What is right and works in one company is not necessarily the best way for another company to do it. It's just like implementations. Each consultant has their own methodology. Each surely believes their methodology is 'best', but we all know there is no single 'best' way, just as we know one implementation method which is 'best' for one client company may not be the 'best' implemtation strategy in a different client company.

Just some tempering thoughts.
 
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