"On the job training" as a response to how someone was trained?

ISO_Man

Involved In Discussions
#1
During an audit, when I asked an employee about their training history they replied "I received on the job training." For someone without formal training and no specific records of on the job training how does one prove competence? Performance reviews?
 
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qualprod

Trusted Information Resource
#2
During an audit, when I asked an employee about their training history they replied "I received on the job training." For someone without formal training and no specific records of on the job training how does one prove competence? Performance reviews?
The idea is that people be competent, and not to be involved in jobs in which is not ready.
If he or she didn't show evidences of competency and was working , it is a NC.
 

ISO_Man

Involved In Discussions
#3
The idea is that people be competent, and not to be involved in jobs in which is not ready.
If he or she didn't show evidences of competency and was working , it is a NC.
and when I write the NC and their manager comes back to me and says "what should I do" how do I counsel them? I'm part of the internal quality team so I can't just say "it's not my problem." They will expect advice from me on how to address the NC.
 

blackholequasar

Involved In Discussions
#4
This may be something that requires a corrective action. Generating a CAPA for this would help determine the root cause and provide a resolution going forward - maybe an OTJ training form, or a letter to file for the employee if they are able to demonstrate the core competencies for the job. If it's a companywide issue, it may be a good idea to review the processes to ensure you are meeting your company's requirements for training.

We would use an OTJ training form for folks cross-training in new positions. But if it's a position that someone has been working, that may not be a very effective way to measure their knowledge. In some cases employees may be grandfathered in because they've been doing the job for so long, it's obvious that they are competent. However, if they are NOT competent, then using an OTJ training form to document their learning may benefit you. It's about what works best for your team and company
 

ISO_Man

Involved In Discussions
#5
This may be something that requires a corrective action. Generating a CAPA for this would help determine the root cause and provide a resolution going forward - maybe an OTJ training form, or a letter to file for the employee if they are able to demonstrate the core competencies for the job. If it's a companywide issue, it may be a good idea to review the processes to ensure you are meeting your company's requirements for training.

We would use an OTJ training form for folks cross-training in new positions. But if it's a position that someone has been working, that may not be a very effective way to measure their knowledge. In some cases employees may be grandfathered in because they've been doing the job for so long, it's obvious that they are competent. However, if they are NOT competent, then using an OTJ training form to document their learning may benefit you. It's about what works best for your team and company
OK - thanks - the "grandfather" clause was the topic of another post for me - I have people who have been doing the same job for 20+ years and there are no training records for them, the new training record program just has a form in their file that has "grandfathered in" written on the form. I'm not sure how I would address that if I was auditing them.
 

qualprod

Trusted Information Resource
#6
and when I write the NC and their manager comes back to me and says "what should I do" how do I counsel them? I'm part of the internal quality team so I can't just say "it's not my problem." They will expect advice from me on how to address the NC.
First, you have to define responsibilities and authorities and competency.
This done by using job descriptions, here you describe with some details what you need of your people, from here compare what in your people comply against this.
In areas they are weak, give the the appropriate training.
Job descriptions are also useful when hiring new people, is the filter to evaluate if competency is fulfilled.
On the other hand, your people shouldn't have to ask you what to do
It is supposed they are involved into the qms, regarding , training, corrective actions, they should know what to do, ok , you my guide them, but a qms is comprised of all the people in the organization.
Regards.
 

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
#7
Training is not competency. Competency can be determined thru qualifications, performance, etc. If someone is working at a job, I would "assume" competency. It's not for the worker to answer the question -- "how are your competent" or "what training do you have." The questions should be directed at the supervisor -- "how did you determine if that guy was competent to do that task?"

In our case, for our low level operator jobs it's pretty simple. They start off with the simple tasks and as they prove themselves, they are moved to more complicated tasks. Some move up quickly, some not so much. It's all done thru observation and training with the supervisor.
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#8
OTJ and grandfathering are concepts that recognize companies were operating before a formal business management system was established. Now if that employee was hired after the management system was formalized, i would be questioning the lack of records. However, records only speak to training, not to competence.

For that have been grandfathered in to a position/function, using the results/outcomes of the processes can be an easy and already-in-place to help demonstrate competence. If I'm trained on Process X and there are no defects (or my defect rate is meeting the acceptable target), then it sounds like I'm pretty competent at my job. If, however, I do Process X and my defect rate or customer complaints attributed to my process are high, my competency may be called into question.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#9
During an audit, when I asked an employee about their training history they replied "I received on the job training." For someone without formal training and no specific records of on the job training how does one prove competence? Performance reviews?
Why would you ask an auditee this question rather than reviewing the records before the audit and then talking to the supervisor if there were a concern? I'm with Golfman25 on this one.
 
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