One Procedure Containing Several Processes

Q

QAMTY

#1
Hi everybody

Is it possible and practical to have oen procedure including several processes?

Besides to the ones already known, e.g.

(Docs. control, records control, audits, etc.)

Other I remember, the Realization Process.

Because regarding to procedures, normally they refer only to their own processes, well, other processes are mentioned but as a support
but they are not the main actors.

For example, for a Sales procedure only include activities into the Sales process, they don´t overlap other processes, in fact when describing
the process map, the inputs and ouputs define the borders.

Would exist a case/sample (process or sub-processes) crossing the borders?

This doubt came to me because in my case one guy act as
sales manager, expeditor, and inspector of the product.
and I thought to include in one procedure several processes.

Any Idea?

Thanks in advance
 
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Pancho

wikineer
Super Moderator
#2
Hi everybody

Is it possible and practical to have oen procedure including several processes?

Besides to the ones already known, e.g.

(Docs. control, records control, audits, etc.)

Other I remember, the Realization Process.

Because regarding to procedures, normally they refer only to their own processes, well, other processes are mentioned but as a support
but they are not the main actors.

For example, for a Sales procedure only include activities into the Sales process, they don´t overlap other processes, in fact when describing
the process map, the inputs and ouputs define the borders.

Would exist a case/sample (process or sub-processes) crossing the borders?

This doubt came to me because in my case one guy act as
sales manager, expeditor, and inspector of the product.
and I thought to include in one procedure several processes.

Any Idea?

Thanks in advance
Processes are logical sets of related activities that turn inputs into outputs.

I'd suggest you have separate documents for each of them even if one guy does several of them, otherwise the process flow may get muddled losing one objective of the process approach - to avoid them muddles in the flow.
 
#3
If your question is concerning ISO 9001:2008 requirements about how to handle procedures then take a look at 4.2.1 c & d.

"The quality management system shall include . . . documented procedures and records required by this international standard . . . documents, including records, determined by the organization to be necessary to ensure the effective planning, operation and control of its processes"

So c says you need documented procedures for the topics in the standard that require written procedures. There are six of them. d says your documentation needs to include whatever it needs to have an effective quality management system and on that note many organizations have determined that they need more than the basic six. You get to determine what additional ones if any that you need.

Note 1 after 4.2.1 adds illumination to the topic.

"Where the term "documented procedure" appears within this international standard, this means that the procedure is established, documented, implemented and maintained. A single document may address the requirements for one or more procedures. A requirement for a documented procedure may be covered by more than one document"

So you get to format your procedures any way you want as long as he somehow cover the basic six as well as any other topics you feel are needed.

So there is no requirement to line up you procedures to your processes. You can if you want and can do so effectively, but you don't need to do so to fulfill a requirement of the standard.

You get to figure out what will be effective for you.
 
#4
Hi everybody

Is it possible and practical to have oen procedure including several processes?

Besides to the ones already known, e.g.

(Docs. control, records control, audits, etc.)

Other I remember, the Realization Process.

Because regarding to procedures, normally they refer only to their own processes, well, other processes are mentioned but as a support
but they are not the main actors.

For example, for a Sales procedure only include activities into the Sales process, they don´t overlap other processes, in fact when describing
the process map, the inputs and ouputs define the borders.

Would exist a case/sample (process or sub-processes) crossing the borders?

This doubt came to me because in my case one guy act as
sales manager, expeditor, and inspector of the product.
and I thought to include in one procedure several processes.

Any Idea?

Thanks in advance
Documented procedures must be process dependent. Person must be trained about the procedure to be adhered to when a process is to be executed.
If a process can get a NC part, lead to the NC parts handling procedure. When NC is handled per the procedure, records make me generated, at this stage lead it to the control of records procedure / analysis of data procedure. When the data gets analysed per the procedure, it may trigger a corrective action. Hence at this stage lead it to the CAPA procedure.
 
D

DrM2u

#5
Is it possible and practical to have oen procedure including several processes?
Like all the others posters have indicated, there are no set rules as to how many processes can be covered by a procedure. IMHO, it is wiser to have separate procedures for each process because:
- ease of document control for the documented procedures
- ease of updating a procedure when the process changes
- avoidance of capturing the same process in more than one procedure and having discrepancies among procedures
- ease of correlating and cross-referencing processes and procedures

I have also encountered instances where a person wears more than one hat (is responsible for more than one process). Separate procedures for each process helped keep things simple and facilitated training of the personnel involved in each process. I am sure that other posters could come with more arguments for or against having separate procedures, but keep in mind your organization's needs when taking a decision.
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Leader
Admin
#6
How you arrange and format your procedures is up to you. What matters most is that their users will consistently apply them in their work in order to achieve desired results. Of course that means they are accurate, but 4.2 specifies they be readily accessible and up-to-date. They can be chapters, Attachments or Appendixes to the quality manual or they can be separate and merely listed; they can be pages on an Intranet site, and they can even be in a Wiki system as Pancho has tantalizingly described.
 

rogerpenna

Involved In Discussions
#7
Ok, this is a topic from 10 years, but let me give my input and let's hope people will read this in this old topic.

I suppose that with "procedure" you mean the PROCEDURE DOCUMENT, not the procedure itself (the list of actions and activities describing how to perform a part of a process.

If we are talking about the PROCEDURE DOCUMENTS, then I would say that the amount of processes covered by each Procedure Document would depend on the GRANULARITY of your organization's process mapping.

As I have mentioned otherwise in this forum, the ISO requirements don´t match Business Process Management discipline. On this forum, people have talked about companies having 20-30 processes, and thus you "modelling", doing a SIPOC diagram, creating KPIs for EACH of them. Piece of cake.

However, no company has only 20-30 processes. Maybe MACRO processes. A 300 people company with several departments will have in excess of 150 processes.

According to BPM practices, you will monitor only a few of them. You will model only a few of them. Anything beyond that is wasting money and resources without any good ROI.

For more info on this, check this topic
APQC PCF (Process Classification Framework) and ISO 9001 - Processes Based Approach

In particular this part I wrote
OPERATIONAL VIEW - Operational Processes / Procedures (APQC PCF Level 4 - Activity)
This is HOW the work is done. You can do it in BPMN but it's more common to use Procedures (like those from ISO)
Imho, you should not have a different procedure for each Operation Process. A Procedure Document should more closely match a Work Process, and then inside the document you would have several different procedures, for the different activities.

This is more a question of managing documents than anything else. Having a different Procedure Document for EACH activity in each Process would create hundreds of very short documents that would be a nightmare to manage.

My company ISO Procedures work like that... the procedure documents usually reflect Process Group or Process level, but inside you find detail on how several activities are done

----------------------------------------

My company never realized that each topic in the Procedure Document was a different process. Their view was "Competences and Training Management" is a process. Then you had a Procedure called Competences and Training Management. Several subtopics in it.
Identification of Training Necessities
External Training / Courses Requirement
Creation of Training Sessions
Training
Evaluation of Training

etc

These are all subprocesses actually. And each of them can have their own procedures.

But imagine how hellish to have 10 Procedures Documents for TRAINING ONLY. The huge work to review all of them separately. Manage version numbers, Etc.

APQC Framework has Macroprocess number 7: Develop and Manage Human Capital

This macroprocess has 9 Processes Level 2
1 - Develop and manage human resources planning, policies, and strategies
2 - Recruit, source, and select employees
3 - Recruit, source, and select employees
4 - Manage employee relations
5 - Reward and retain employees
6 - Redeploy and retire employees
7 - Manage employee information and analytics
8 - Manage employee communication
9 - Deliver employee communications



7.3.4 Develop and train employees
7.3.4.1 Align employee with organization development needs
7.3.4.2 Define employee competencies
7.3.4.3 Align learning programs with competencies
7.3.4.4 Establish training needs by analysis of required and available skills
7.3.4.5 Develop, conduct, and manage employee and/or management training programs
7.3.4.6 Manage examinations and certifications
7.3.4.6.1 Liaise with external certification authorities
7.3.4.6.2 Administer certification tests
7.3.4.6.3 Appraise experience qualifications
7.3.4.6.4 Administer certificate issue and maintenance


That's 7.3.4 alone. In total, 136 Processes only for "DEVELOP AND MANAGE HUMAN CAPITAL"

Of course, APQC is a framework. The objective is not to say every company should have those processes. But to suggest processes names and numbers to facilitate benchmarking, metrics, etc.

But the example was just to show how many processes a company can have and why you can´t have a Procedure Document for each of them.
 
#8
Keep in mind that procedure and process are not interchangable terms. Processes are not required to have written procedures for them, not even the basic six from the 2008 version of the standard.

The complexity of how any organization determines to set up their company is up to that organization, and a much simpler construction is more appropriate for less complex and simpler organizations.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#9
procedure and process are not interchangable terms
Help me out here I'm kinda lost.......Where is this documented or written as a valid statement?

I found these definitions in as quick as I hit search on Google/Bing

PROCEDURE
a series of actions conducted in a certain order or manner.
"the standard procedure for informing new employees about conditions of work"
synonyms:
method · course of action · process · technique · system · plan · strategy · scheme · means · mechanism · routine · manner · approach · route · road · modus operandi

PROCESS
a series of actions or steps taken in order to achieve a particular end.
"military operations could jeopardize the peace process"
synonyms:
procedure · operation · action · activity · exercise · affair · business · job · task · undertaking · proceeding
 
#10
Hi Randy

I'll try to explain my thinking.

Before opening your message when I got notice of it and it stopped with where is this documented or written as a valid statement, I also looked up both meanings and both lists of synonyms. Then I went to ISO 9000:2015 for their definitions and found that they looked close to each other there too.

Using the definitions you provided, it appears the procedure is more focused on the order of events. Although order is also used in the definition of process, the word order doesn't seem to take on quite the same meaning. There is seems to be pointed to obtain a particular outcome.

Even with this, it is probably splitting hairs on semantics, especially on connotation and denotation.

I got into this after the ISO 9001:2000 version of the standard was in place and the transition to it was completed and had been for about a year so my knowledge of what was actually in the 1994 version is limited.

Now to the core of my thinking, right or wrong, somewhere along the way I remember that it was a common practice for the ISO 9001:1994 version of the standard that each of the key elements were considered by some to be a process. This resulted in many quality manuals being written with a procedure to match each process. This was such a common practice (and I have seen a few of those manuals) that it became a common thing to assume that every process needed a written procedure on how to accomplish it, so that the two terms became interchangeable in the minds of many.

The 2000 and 2008 versions specifically required written procedures to cover six topics and also added that each required topic could be covered with one or more procedures and that procedures could be cover more than one topic. This helped to show that there was no need to have a procedure for each process.

The 2015 version no longer uses the term procedures and including no requirement to have written procedures.

To add to the confusion, TC 176 never did a good job of defining what they mean by process. Parts of the standard appear to use process when dealing with what is obviously manufacturing activities (8.1 f for example) and other parts it appears to refer to the organizational structure (4.1 where you determine your processes, how they interact with each other, how they will be monitored and measured, and what you will do when they misbehave. Many have come to refer to the processes spoken of in 4.1 are your business processes which often fall out on divisional or departmental lines.

Starting sometime in late 2004 or early 2005, auditors were directed to audit according the the organization's processes and to no longer use the element based checklist. To determine each organizations processes, the auditors were directed to use the organizations IOP (interaction of processes).

This was full of problems, mainly because most IOPs were not written with providing a framework for auditing in mind. As a result many auditors adopted the practice of using their own list of processes. Eventually there was a crackdown on this from the Accreditation Bodies in about 2014. This resulted in getting the organizations to clean up their IOPs.

Sorry for the deep historical dive but I think it was necessary to explain the problems created in ISO 9001 (and the standards based on it) from the lack of an appropriate definition of what a process is it terms that would keep an organization from determine 25 or more processes from process mapping that would be impractical or impossible to audit in the allowed man days.

Maybe we should start calling the IOP and interaction of processes and procedures or an interaction of procedures. I know it doesn't make sense to do so, but for how the terms are used in the standard it leaves so much ambiguity that it creates traps like this.
 
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