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One sample piece from standard production? AS9102 FAIR questions

C

Common Sense

#1
My past experience was that only one sample piece from standard production was used to prepare a typical AS9102 FAIR. I am now at a company that requests between 13 and 30 units be submitted for FAI reporting. Problem is, there is no justification as to why.

This is very costly because of the preparation fees added by the suppliers.
What are other companies out there doing? Is 1 piece typical?

Also - Are most companies bubbling drawings and preparing the forms to later be filled out by their suppliers or are they leaving it up to the suppliers and then verify that they didn't miss anything?

Does anyone out there use the AS9102 data as the basis for preparing their receiving inspection quality plans? I would like to find a way to combine them both into an EXCEL spreadsheet so that I can monitor it all in one place.

Elsmar is a fantastic place for information! It is my go to place for things happeneing out there in the quality world. Thanks for being there!

:D Common Sense
 
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Mikishots

Trusted Information Resource
#2
Re: AS9102 FAIR questions

My past experience was that only one sample piece from standard production was used to prepare a typical AS9102 FAIR. I am now at a company that requests between 13 and 30 units be submitted for FAI reporting. Problem is, there is no justification as to why.

This is very costly because of the preparation fees added by the suppliers.
What are other companies out there doing? Is 1 piece typical?

Also - Are most companies bubbling drawings and preparing the forms to later be filled out by their suppliers or are they leaving it up to the suppliers and then verify that they didn't miss anything?

Does anyone out there use the AS9102 data as the basis for preparing their receiving inspection quality plans? I would like to find a way to combine them both into an EXCEL spreadsheet so that I can monitor it all in one place.

Elsmar is a fantastic place for information! It is my go to place for things happeneing out there in the quality world. Thanks for being there!

:D Common Sense
One piece is typical. Inspection of 13 to 30 pieces is not considered first article inspection.
 

dsanabria

Quite Involved in Discussions
#4
My past experience was that only one sample piece from standard production was used to prepare a typical AS9102 FAIR. I am now at a company that requests between 13 and 30 units be submitted for FAI reporting. Problem is, there is no justification as to why.

This is very costly because of the preparation fees added by the suppliers.
What are other companies out there doing? Is 1 piece typical?

Also - Are most companies bubbling drawings and preparing the forms to later be filled out by their suppliers or are they leaving it up to the suppliers and then verify that they didn't miss anything?

Does anyone out there use the AS9102 data as the basis for preparing their receiving inspection quality plans? I would like to find a way to combine them both into an EXCEL spreadsheet so that I can monitor it all in one place.

Elsmar is a fantastic place for information! It is my go to place for things happeneing out there in the quality world. Thanks for being there!

:D Common Sense
Typically that is a first piece from a production run. However what the customer could be thinking about is that they want you to do a PPAP (Production Part Approval Process) which is another topic. Clarify with them if these are the requirements.

To your other Question: the company that produces the design characteristic should be completing the FAIR - noting wrong with helping people if you have resourcefulness the product should be completing.

.. and finally, careful in using the FAIR as you incoming receiving/ inspection plan. You might want to focus resources on customer requirements, critical characteristics, critical dimensions and areas of interest or concern. :notme:
 
S

sideoiler

#5
It sounds more like a sampling plan to me.
I just got into a heated discussion with my supervisor over this... So are you implying the FAI are not subject to the sampling plan? I have a customer who's po stated 1st article required per AS9102 , first article inspection report is required with the first shipment containing all pertinent data. Then under the PO policy, Inspection data requirements - Isolate & I.D. sample parts (plural), record sample inspection data on inspection on Inspection Data Form to allow inspection verification. Under that the customer lists their internal quality requirement form and number. When I go to the quality document it says the almost the same thing however differs in the last paragraph, where it states "when first article inspection is conducted, a copy of the FAIR shall be included with the shipment of parts. Format for this report shall be to the requirements of AS9102. A tag shall be affixed to the inspected First Article part (singular) and shall be included with the shipment.
My interpretation of this is that I need to provide a FAIR based on our sampling plan (ANSI Z1.4 2003 Level II). The order is for 50 pcs, so based on our sampling plan 13 pcs are required for inspection. I look at the quality doc as a general guideline where the word "part" is used in single form because order lot sizes can vary drastically, and not every manufacture is using the same sampling plan as we are.
Am I way off target on this, or do I have a leg to stand on?
Of course my boss spoke to the purchasing agent who informed him that only one would be required, but I want to know based on the documented instructions, which way is correct...

Regards,

Chris
 

Michael_M

Trusted Information Resource
#6
You are talking about 2 separate things.

First Article per AS9102 is typically only required at the first run, if a change to production happens that affects form, fit or function, a new revision, or 2 years have passed since last production. There are other things that can trigger a FAIR as well, but these are the basics.

In-process inspection happens on a continuous basis. The documentation of this is up to the supplier (subject to any special requirements of the PO). If you run 50 parts today, then in 6 months run another 50 parts a new FAIR (typically) is not required; however in process inspection is.

The FAIR for every part (using a machine shop as an example here) means you have to attach the material certification and all outside process certifications (heat treat, passive, plating) to every inspection you do. Although I am not environmentally friendly myself, even I believe this would waste way too much paper and for no purpose.
 
S

sideoiler

#7
You are talking about 2 separate things.

First Article per AS9102 is typically only required at the first run, if a change to production happens that affects form, fit or function, a new revision, or 2 years have passed since last production. There are other things that can trigger a FAIR as well, but these are the basics.

In-process inspection happens on a continuous basis. The documentation of this is up to the supplier (subject to any special requirements of the PO). If you run 50 parts today, then in 6 months run another 50 parts a new FAIR (typically) is not required; however in process inspection is.

The FAIR for every part (using a machine shop as an example here) means you have to attach the material certification and all outside process certifications (heat treat, passive, plating) to every inspection you do. Although I am not environmentally friendly myself, even I believe this would waste way too much paper and for no purpose.
I understand what dictates a FAIR, and this is the first run of this order... Im just unclear as to how many parts I should isolate and I.D. per the lot qty, and the instructions given on both the customers po and quality req document...
 

Candi1024

Quite Involved in Discussions
#8
"First Article per AS9102 is typically only required at the first run"

This is an old post, sorry. Running into the same issue. Isn't FAI a validation of the manufacturing process, not a reliability test?

"The purpose of the First Article Inspection is to provide objective evidence that all engineering design and specification requirements are properly understood, accounted for, verified, and documented."

Why would that need more than one sample?

Of course, we will do whatever the customer desires.
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#9
As9102B section 4.1.b (emphasis mine):

"The organization shall use a representative item from the first production run of a new product to verify that the
production processes, production documentation, and tooling have the capability to produce products that meet
established requirements."


One part.
 

Cari Spears

Super Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
#10
"First Article per AS9102 is typically only required at the first run"

This is an old post, sorry. Running into the same issue. Isn't FAI a validation of the manufacturing process, not a reliability test?

"The purpose of the First Article Inspection is to provide objective evidence that all engineering design and specification requirements are properly understood, accounted for, verified, and documented."

Why would that need more than one sample?

Of course, we will do whatever the customer desires.
Is your customer asking you to give a lot range for the dimensional results? Or are they asking you to put together a whole FAIR for each sample?

FAI per AS9102 is one part, but some customers like to add their own spin...:rolleyes:
 
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