SBS - The best value in QMS software

Opportunity For Improvement vs Opportunity (Positive Risk)

rogerpenna

Involved In Discussions
#1
Since ISO 9001:2015, all the Risk mentality was incorporated into ISO, including the fact that Risks are not only negative, but also POSITIVE risks, also called Opportunities.


But ISO 9001 already had for a long time used the term Opportunity for Improvement, the OFI.

Is there any REAL, tangible relation between them? Should the identification of a positive risk create an OFI? Or should we not even consider Positive Risks, just create an OFI if a risk is positive?


Without much analysis, it seems to be both are a little different, in that OFIs would be used for smaller things, sometimes almost like "suggestions for improvement".

While a Positive Risk (opportunity) would be more formal, maybe on a more strategic level. With maybe analysis of a trigger of the event, probability, impact, etc.

Any insight into this?
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Tagin

Trusted Information Resource
#2
Should the identification of a positive risk create an OFI? Or should we not even consider Positive Risks, just create an OFI if a risk is positive?
It's really up to how you want to define your process for handling positive risks. We put both negative and positive risks in a single risk register so that they are recorded, reviewed, monitored in the same way. If we decide to act on a positive risk, that usually spawns a task in our task system.

Whether you want to maintain negative & positive risks separately is up to you. Just have your documentation follow what you do.
 

Bev D

Heretical Statistician
Staff member
Super Moderator
#3
Cranky rant: What the heck is a positive risk? Why is this phrase gaining any traction? Don’t we have enough words that can describe these situations with far less confusion? It’s like calling a wild fire a runaway thermal event cuz it makes us sound ‘’smarter’?

This may be semantics but there is - in my opinion and on specific definitions of the words - a difference between an opportunity for improvement (OFI) and a ‘positive risk’. Especially in an audit context. Descriptions of positive risks (SWOT analysis, etc.) are generally customer facing opportunities. Examples are moving from a distribution channel to direct shipping or bringing a new product to market. Opportunities for improvement tend to be described as internal process improvements that might make things better. An example would be to add a review board for assessing product changes...these are very different things.
 

rogerpenna

Involved In Discussions
#4
I agree Bev D. The phrase "positive risk" is gaining traction because ISO decided that companies should have a risk based mentality, and also decided that meant negative AND positive risks. It's a word salad. If we go for "opportunities" it creates this confusion with OFIs, which is the reason for this thread.

Just yesterday I saw a blog post talking about risk management and upon touching the subject of ISO coming with this "positive risk" thing, he ironically quoted humpty dumpty:
“When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean − neither more nor less.”

but anyway, I think your idea of what an OFI is compared to a "positive risk / opportunity" kinda matches my thought.
 

Tagin

Trusted Information Resource
#5
I can see a benefit of using the term 'positive risk' is that it denotes more explicitly the probabilistic nature of predicting something in the future (positive or negative). And also by classifying as 'risk', there is more likely to be awareness of, and an emphasis on, risk analysis and risk evaluation. The term 'OFI' doesn't really convey those aspects in any clear way.

From ISO 31000 Risk management - a practical guide for SMEs :

While ISO 31000:2009 does not use these terms, risks with positive consequences for organizational objectives may be referred to as “opportunities”. Examples of opportunities include uncertainty over the presence of oil or minerals in an area, or sufficient market potential to merit expansion. These risks with positive consequences can be treated by testing to determine if commercial quantities of oil or minerals are present, or by evaluating the apparent new market. Managing the uncertainty of these “opportunities” would be accomplished by using ISO 31000:2009. It is more effective for an organization to manage all risks by aligning its risk management with ISO 31000:2009, notwithstanding the nature of the consequences.
 

Bev D

Heretical Statistician
Staff member
Super Moderator
#6
So here is a real problem: Risk is a vector word. Something bad might happen. Severity and probability. So you can conflate probability and severity if you want but they are not the same thing and we do ourselves and others a grave disservice when we are not clear about what we actually mean.


Now there is only NEGATIVE severity. This is the problem with assigning new definitions to old words - it is done only to 1. Confuse and 2. Convince you to spend money on something new, when it’s just snake oil. We have failed in learning to think critically.

Every opportunity has risks that something bad could happen if you pursue the opportunity. The opportunity is the positive benefit. The whole idea of risk based thinking or risk assessment is to identify the risks (bad things) that could happen and then mitigate them to ensure success. Anything else is just absurd twisting of words to support the people behind the curtain who are trying to sell you more snake oil. ISO started down this sewer drain when they couldn’t figure out how to use the words corrective and preventive, now we have positive risk. Sheesh.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#7
I agree wholeheartedly with Bev. The concept of "positive risk" is so grossly absurd and oxymoronic that it seems like parody.
 

rogerpenna

Involved In Discussions
#8
I agree mostly with you BevD.

What about replacing the word "severity" to "impact"? Or "Consequence"?

Then you have probability (let's say: rare, improbable, possible, probable, almost certain) and you have impact/consequence, which can be negative if it is a classic negative risk (insignificant, light, medium, grave, very grave), or positive if it's a positive risk/opportunity: insignificant, light, medium, good, very good)


But yeah, I am getting already convinced to treat negative risks, keep our traditional OFI procedures and keep POSITIVE risks on our SWOT analysis.
 

rogerpenna

Involved In Discussions
#9
I agree wholeheartedly with Bev. The concept of "positive risk" is so grossly absurd and oxymoronic that it seems like parody.
I suppose many people here have long experience in the area, with ISO, etc... have you seen this negativity towards positive risk escalate and reach the people that manage ISO?

When you look at blogs and videos about Risk Management I never see such negativity towards the concept of positive risks.
 

Bev D

Heretical Statistician
Staff member
Super Moderator
#10
This is the hill I will die on: there is no such thing as positive risk. Stop drinking the Kool Aid. Just stop.


The blogs and videos are done by snake oil salesmen.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
R Change Management vs Opportunity for Improvement ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
T OFI (Opportunity for Improvement) vs. AOC (Area of Concern) - Definitions Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 1
C Do we need to make a new OFI (Opportunity for Improvement) for each document/form we update? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 23
R Difference Process Objective/Opportunity for improvement ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 9
J Audit opportunity for improvement raised to nonconformance months after the audit General Auditing Discussions 7
M Opportunity For Improvement - Customer to sign off or approve a new design ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 1
L Preventative Action vs. Opportunity for Improvement Preventive Action and Continuous Improvement 21
W Process approach - Auditor issued OFI (opportunity for improvement) on clause 8.2.2 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 10
B Major vs. Minor vs. Opportunity for Improvement - Product as well as Office Processes Internal Auditing 27
J Opportunity in ISO 9001:2015 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 13
supadrai Remote Opportunity - Large Scale Glove Factory QMS / RA / Legal Job Openings, Consulting and Employment Opportunities 0
J Can a risk be an opportunity? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
M Informational USFDA – Digital Health Update: The FDA Announces an Opportunity for Test Case Volunteers for the Test Plan for the Software Precertification Program Medical Device and FDA Regulations and Standards News 0
P What is the exact difference between Risk and Opportunity in context of ISO 27001? IEC 27001 - Information Security Management Systems (ISMS) 7
S Internal Audit - Risk and Opportunity (ISO 9001:2015 ) Internal Auditing 1
Q Risk/Opportunity in a combined ISO 9001 & 14001 System ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 1
Q Risk & opportunity assessment - ISO 14001 ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 1
Q Criteria to pursue an opportunity ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
N New company with opportunity to bid for Aerospace work AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 1
S Cost of business lost / opportunity lost? How to address? Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 13
S MBA Finance major & HR minor job opportunity in TQM field Career and Occupation Discussions 1
M Internship opportunity in the US - Possibilities and how to go about it? Career and Occupation Discussions 2
Sidney Vianna ANAB Stakeholders Survey - Your opportunity to voice your opinion ASQ, ANAB, UKAS, IAF, IRCA, Exemplar Global and Related Organizations 3
T Opportunity to become senior 'Subcontractor Quality Management' Engineer Career and Occupation Discussions 13
Wes Bucey "In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity." - Einstein Career and Occupation Discussions 2
A Unique Opportunity for QM - 'Chief Quality Officer' ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 20
Marc Job Openings and Employment Opportunities forum - Who may post an Opportunity Elsmar Cove Forum ToS and Forum Policies 1
P Determining Defects per Opportunity/AQL - Vehicle & Equipment Repair and Maintenance AQL - Acceptable Quality Level 1
Wes Bucey Thanks for giving me the opportunity to give a little bit back Philosophy, Gurus, Innovation and Evolution 20
G QA or Lean opportunity in Thailand? How to find... Career and Occupation Discussions 2
Wes Bucey Oops! Opportunity for mistake proofing? Worker flicks wrong switch World News 14
D Should low volume supplier PPM comparisons consider level of opportunity for error? Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 2
B How to decide the ?U? to calcuate DPU and "opportunity" of DPMO Six Sigma 8
J What is the difference between opportunity and defect in Six Sigma? Six Sigma 1
Wes Bucey Preventive Action Opportunity? Egg Carton Material Nonconformance and Corrective Action 17
N Operations Management Opportunity- Any advice? Career and Occupation Discussions 11
M Opportunity for Improvements, Auditing & Review Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 2
Claes Gefvenberg Ford Focus recalls. An opportunity to discuss preventive and corrective actions ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 12
B Pollution Prevention in an EMS - P2 Opportunity Assessments Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 4
Marc Distinguish between problem and opportunity as follows Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 0
S DPM (Defect parts per million opportunity) vs. PPM Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 3
D Continuous Improvement Plan - Plastic injection molding IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1
M "Issue & continuous improvement" columns in AIAG-VDA PFMEA form FMEA and Control Plans 4
G Lean Kaizen: continuous, step-by-step improvement in the Lean direction Lean in Manufacturing and Service Industries 0
S Proposed Quality Improvement - Thoughts? Medical Device and FDA Regulations and Standards News 3
howste Aerospace Improvement Maturity Model (AIMM) AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 5
B Four Key Performance Indicators for Continual Improvement (Dec. 3 2019) [Deleted] Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 2
M Master Dot for quality planning/improvement Manufacturing and Related Processes 1
D Process Improvement and CAPAs ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 5
R Linking the Processes of Continual Improvement, Change Management, Risk Management, Action Planning, etc? Preventive Action and Continuous Improvement 5

Similar threads

Top Bottom