Our QS9000 audit team has been using checklists to perform internal audits

barb butrym

Quite Involved in Discussions
#21
what about a check mark as evidence of audit execution (record).....does not fly for me on the surface.....or any other auditor I know.......Maybe its a registrar quirk....but I have written up companies for that before....how hard depends on what else I see in the audit program and records of the audits. If there is an audit trail that provides evidence I back off... if all I see are check marks, then i find a evidence to show it was not effective, believe me if a company has to resort to just check marks, evidence will be there. I know I am a great advocate of 'do what adds value" BUT I draw the line here.....No trail --- no audit
 
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Kevin Mader

One of THE Original Covers!
Staff member
Admin
#22
Warning: projection to soon follow.

Doing something half committed often results in waste. If an organization wants to optimize the audit process, they must determine what the inputs are and if the outputs meet the expectations (a registrar's or thier own). Only then can they tailor the process to achieve their goals, save time and money, and keep the integrity of the audit program. These initial steps can not be "short cut" to the dismay of the organization looking only for the short-term gain. Being an advocate for value added is in my opinion correct. I would find a three hour internal audit with audit team formalized working papers and an audit report with plenty of objective evidence more valuable than a 45 minute check off on canned questions. I'm with you Barb. If a trail of objective evidence can't be uncovered and demonstrated in an audit report, hard to say if an audit took place at all.

Back to the group....

[This message has been edited by Kevin Mader (edited 15 June 1999).]
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration
Staff member
Admin
#23
My 2 cents - a check mark doesn't say shit. Either cite specifically what was looked at (the evidence) or there's no evidence there was an audit.
 
#24
Well, my audit group does both.

As the "owner" of the Internal Auditing Process, I do have a core group of "canned" questions, (modified from our original registrar's question list) that we use as a base.

Beyond that, I meet with the people who will be the audit team, and we review the procedures that are relevant to the area that we are going to audit. We add to the core question list, issues that are to be evaluated based upon the procedures that are relevant.

This system has worked very well. What we gain from it is is ongoing familiarity with the types of things that an outside auditor will be looking for as well as addressing the specific issues that go on at the facility from day-to-day.

As we move from audit to audit the "added" questions are different. Even if we are looking at procedures that have existed for years, we will either look at specific parts of that procedure (to create different auditable items), or check a look a new/different relevant procedures for a given element.

Bottom line... we have the core questions (or as some have called them "canned" questions) and add to them the Company-specific questions relative to our operations and quality system documentation. We end up with a fresh audit package each audit.

Thanks for allowing me to contribute!

ALM
 
D
#25
Everywhere I turn I hear value-added auditing.
But I never see anything on the "how" to do it. Any ideas?
 

Kevin Mader

One of THE Original Covers!
Staff member
Admin
#26
Dawn,

Try using flow charts as part of the audit process. Look for pauses and redundancy in the charts (i.e. did you have to repeat a step or did something remain stagnant)? As a matter of general commenting in the Audit Report, a statement should be made to inform the auditee of your discovery. From there, the auditee may use this information to improve the process, hence making the operation increase in value. Remember that auditors are interested in compliance to the program, but they are also interested in the effectiveness of the program too.

Regards,

Kevin

Back to the group...
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#27
One of the subjects that I have not seen covered here is the fact that checklists show proof of "planning audits".
We write checklists based on our procedures for our own guidance but in our procedure we have written that "according to the auditor's judgement he can ask more or other questions. We then write a report using the questions as headings. The creation of a checklist shows planning and refreshes the auditor on the purpose of the audit. It is also possible to add other questions based on incidents that have happened.
 

barb butrym

Quite Involved in Discussions
#28
Way back we did one on planning..Marc even has a couple plan things in the PDF ZONE. Things to include on a list are any followup/reviews of past actions from CA/PA, customer complaints, n/c material/process stuff, etc. observations from audits, as well as findings from audit reports (internal and otherwise)...
I typically include alot more in case a re-assignmant of auditors happes during the process, so work is not duplicated..my planning/status check list is http://www.qs9000.com/pdf_files/QF317-2.pdf in the pdf zone if you are interested...also include an input space on area check lists for info from the reviews.

Administrator Note: Hyperlink to barb's form added. I like barb's form. I also prefer, and use, copies of procedures as barb was writing about earlier in this thread. When using the 'copy of procedure' method you can come close to the 'check mark' audit, IMHO.

[This message has been edited by admin (edited 12 July 1999).]
 
S

spenceat

#29
I have recently started as a QA Manager and one of the first objectives I was asked to do was to produce an Intenal Audit Program.

One of my concerns was what is the best method while auditing a process or function, do I use a standrd set of questions on a checklist or do I use my own initiative.

After reading the above replies, it seems to me the best route forward is to use a procedure, make and ask questions relavant to that process or function and keep as objective evidence.

Since my internal auditing skills are limited, is there any best way of ensuring while using procedures as a form of checklist, the SCOPE of my internal audit schedules is still satisfying ISO requirements?

Andy
 

barb butrym

Quite Involved in Discussions
#30
there is much todo about that question andy....but let me add my 2 cents here before the group gets fired up.

Perform the audit to the procedures, then that done, answer the canned questions from what you observed/noted while auditing. Your audit trail, over time and experience, will have the details you need to determine whether the System is functioning properly. The audit trail is key. You should be able to recreate..many months later...the situations noted, both conforming and not. That and a cross reference of elements to areas will provide you all the information you need, of course that assumes (arrrrhhh I hate that word)the documentation has covered the shalls in the first place and has been properly cross referenced.

Add to the schedule... the 20 elements, then the scope of taht audit is to review the findings from all the audits in that element..for instance. Training....review all area audits for findings on training issues. I do this best with a report cover sheet (electronic) that has classifiations of findings, those include things like training, traceability, inspection status, stats, doc control, equipment, records, repeat occurrances, previous CAs issued/closed....what ever works, serves a quick reference for Management Review as well. This came from a retention report for the DoD I used to have to do, and adapted it to ISO.

[This message has been edited by barb butrym (edited 12 July 1999).]
 
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