Out of Dimensional Tolerance - MRB Audit Issue

gjkoenig

Starting to get Involved
#1
We are a TS 16949:2009 company that had a recent supplier audit by a new customer. The auditor requested to look at the Inspection Data for a part we were running from a different customer and noted that a there were a couple of "red" dimensions that were out of spec. There was no associated action for this outage (i.e. scrapping parts, MRB, reject/hold). This is due to the fact that this particular dimension is a constant source of difficulty in processing the part where the dimension often corrects itself in time upon running parts from normal feed material changes. As a result, we continue to run with this outtage and measure the parts again at the end of the run. If the parts are good, we just continue with the production. The out of dimension measurement is not deleted, but kept in the inspection data file, thus being viewed by the SQM auditor.

We need to provide a corrective action as the outtage is interpreted that we are shipping out of dimension parts. The parts have not caused our customer any issues (I know, I know, it's not an excuse). Other than the obvious as to not pass out-of-dimension parts, what can we do to answer this? We are forced to live with this condition as we are bound by the design of the part that does not lend itself for easy production.

A deviation request from the customer would cover us in this situation but it is very unlikely as there are too many political issues within the customer's divisions where no one will be willing to risk granting us a waiver. We have internally MRB'd this part for the same out-of-dimension condition resulting in Use-as-is. As a newcomer, I know this violates the fact that we do not have design authority to override an out of tolerance condition but the historical production of the part has been handled this way. I really need help or input on how we should properly explain these outtages. Thanks.
 
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Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
#2
Re: Out of Dimensional Tolerance - MRB Audit Issue - Need Help!

So if I understand correctly, you continue to run with the out of spec condition and actually ship parts which may have the out of spec. condition based on past history and/or "approval?" Frankly, not all that uncommon.
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#3
Re: Out of Dimensional Tolerance - MRB Audit Issue - Need Help!

As a result, we continue to run with this outtage and measure the parts again at the end of the run. If the parts are good, we just continue with the production.
Is this measure sampling or 100%?

If sampling, then you are very likely knowingly shipping OOT parts. Let whomever decided that this was okay to do provide the explanation to the auditor. Who signed those UAI MRBs? Let them explain it to the auditors. I suspect a lot of "learning" could come out of this for those folks..... :popcorn:
 

Johnson

Involved In Discussions
#4
If I were the auditor, I would had the same feeling. But since you did not ship the NOK parts to customer, it is not a critical problem, but just an issue to be improved ! You should be able to pursuade the auditor.

I would suggest:
- Don't show such data/information which only lead confusing. Only show the final inspection data.
- The process/method should also be improved because per your description, the process was not robust.
 

Bev D

Heretical Statistician
Staff member
Super Moderator
#5
"The parts have not caused our customer any issues (I know, I know, it's not an excuse). Other than the obvious as to not pass out-of-dimension parts, what can we do to answer this?"

can you clarify: do you ship the parts that actually measured OOT?
do you screen the lot to cull out other parts that are probably OOT but didn't get sampled?
 
G

Grimaskr

#6
I'm still pretty new to TS16949, but my answer might differ based on the nature of the dimension.

Is the dimension called out as a "special characteristic" by design, production, regulatory agencies or the customer? If not, is the dimension printed on drawings provided to/from the customer or is it an internal spec only?

I've also been trapped in situations where tooling and design issues have resulted in specs that can't realistically be met on the production floor, but that was in industries where I had the leeway to do tests to prove it didn't affect form, fit or function... and then open up my production specs accordingly.

That can be a lot harder to do in the automotive industry...
 

gjkoenig

Starting to get Involved
#7
The dimensions we are having OOT conditions with are not special characteristics, however we are not in spec with the DWGs, nor the control plans that have been PPAP'd. The situation as you describe is correct where we just can't maintain these dimensions realistically during production. If we open up the specs internally, yes the parts will pass, but this brings us back to the issue of not conforming to the control plan or having design authority. The customers will typically not sign off of any deviation because they are reluctant to take responsibility in case something goes wrong down the line. The customers are happy with the parts we have been providing them for a good while. The issue is passing the current supplier audits in order to be approved for future business. We are already producing one part for them through the transfer of an existing job from another customer of ours.
 

Eredhel

Quality Manager
#8
When I was still machining I was making a part for a big international customer that was a little big in an ID bore, a characteristic that didn't effect use. I let the owner know but he wasn't concerned as he had been sending them that way for around 6 years. Sure enough at some point the customer did a full inspection, probably a slow day for their quality department. They rejected two orders and he lost that part/job.

That doesn't really answer your question and it may never happen to you, but I've seen it.
 

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
#9
The dimensions we are having OOT conditions with are not special characteristics, however we are not in spec with the DWGs, nor the control plans that have been PPAP'd. The situation as you describe is correct where we just can't maintain these dimensions realistically during production. If we open up the specs internally, yes the parts will pass, but this brings us back to the issue of not conforming to the control plan or having design authority. The customers will typically not sign off of any deviation because they are reluctant to take responsibility in case something goes wrong down the line. The customers are happy with the parts we have been providing them for a good while. The issue is passing the current supplier audits in order to be approved for future business. We are already producing one part for them through the transfer of an existing job from another customer of ours.
I don't think you have a choice here. Because you have ppap'd drawings and control plans, you need to go to your customer and get things corrected. You have a gapping hole in your system. My understanding is TS auditors are looking a lot closer at these things and this could lead to major problems. If I was your new customer, I would be hesitant to give you the work knowing this hole existed. I know it is a can of worms (been there), but get it fixed now. Good luck.
 
#10
Re: Out of Dimensional Tolerance - MRB Audit Issue - Need Help!

So if I understand correctly, you continue to run with the out of spec condition and actually ship parts which may have the out of spec. condition based on past history and/or "approval?" Frankly, not all that uncommon.
I would suggest having the customer write an ECN and widen the tolerance, if they're not experiencing any issues.
 
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