Outsider feedback on quality manual wanted

tmoreau

Inactive Registered Visitor
#1
I'd love any feedback on the suitability of this QM for third party registration, if anything significant is lacking or conceptually flawed.

I based it on the several one-page examples found in the "The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to Do?" thread (can't post a link).
 

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ab001

Inactive Registered Visitor
#2
Re: Lean Quality Manual for new registration

We've been doing a similar thing. The guy before me started off on a plan - rejigging the words in the manual. So we've got things like work instructions that say " the widget procedure is enumerated in ..."
No-one on the floor has read them, and probably wouldn't gain anything by reading them.

After taking courage from reading the cove, I've created a document that actually describes what we do. It's just headings and a table of contents at the moment (using Word:)) but that will be the basis of our system
[can't post it at the moment]
Main headings will be covered by policies, next level down is a procedure, then drill down to work instructions.

we are going to process map everything (SIPOC). I'm hoping that every instruction can be one page - just a diagram and some notes.
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#3
Re: Lean Quality Manual for new registration - Your feedback requested

I have been re-writing my companys procedures, and more recently, the quality manual. We were previously certified to the 1994 standard but since then a lot of things have changed and our documented system... well it fell apart years ago.

Our old quality manual is they type which paraphrases the entire Iso standard. It does nothing for us, its a complete burden. I have reviewed a lot of topics on this site and decided to pursue a very short graphical QM that will be useful in training every employee in the company, and provide a useful reference.

I'd love any feedback on the suitability of this QM for third party registration, if anything significant is lacking or conceptually flawed.
One question: You are using this to document the entire Quality Business System, in accordance with ISO9001:2008? :confused:

The flow-charts to me seem a little too busy. In my opinion, it is not easy to understand. But if it works for your company, then have at it.

I would like to know the results of the Stage 1 assessment (by a Registrar) on the acceptability of this as your Quality Business Manual.
 

tmoreau

Inactive Registered Visitor
#4
Re: Lean Quality Manual for new registration - Your feedback requested

One question: You are using this to document the entire Quality Business System, in accordance with ISO9001:2008? :confused:
Thats the Plan! I have looked at several one-page (usually tri-fold brochure type) quality manuals posted on this forum, and I prefer that idea to the opposite (paraphrased iso standard). It makes more work for an iso auditor, but much much less for the employees of our company.

We are at least a few months from trying for certification, but more of the system is coming online every day.
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#5
Re: Lean Quality Manual for new registration - Your feedback requested

Thats the Plan! I have looked at several one-page (usually tri-fold brochure type) quality manuals posted on this forum, and I prefer that idea to the opposite (paraphrased iso standard). It makes more work for an iso auditor, but much much less for the employees of our company.

We are at least a few months from trying for certification, but more of the system is coming online every day.
I wish you luck on your goal for Registration. Just let us know in the Cove how this Flow-Chart Quality Business System was received by your Registrar.

I am curious on the acceptability of this document.
 

JaneB

Inactive Registered Visitor
#6
Re: Need outsider feedback on quality manual

I'd love any feedback on the suitability of this QM for third party registration, if anything significant is lacking or conceptually flawed.

I based it on the several one-page examples found in the "The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to Do?" thread (can't post a link).
Initial thoughts:

If this is the 'top-level, tie it all together' document, then I think page 1 in particular needs some work. Eg:

  • What is and where is your policy on quality? (I didn't see one included, nor referenced)
  • Where's the required commitment to 9001 and to continual improvement? You say you 'encourage' CI, but there's no actual commitment.
  • Where will your 'measurable objectives' be? (no reference)
  • You refer to a 'collection of documents' - which are they?
 

AndyN

A problem shared...
Staff member
Super Moderator
#7
Re: Lean Quality Manual for new registration - Your feedback requested

I wish you luck on your goal for Registration. Just let us know in the Cove how this Flow-Chart Quality Business System was received by your Registrar.

I am curious on the acceptability of this document.
I know of a number of companies who have used this type of document - with no problems from their CB. Why wouldn't it be acceptable, if it meets all the specified contents of ISO 9001............?

Auditors have to be flexible in the approach and a one page manual may be more value than a bulkier one.
 

AndyN

A problem shared...
Staff member
Super Moderator
#8
Re: Need outsider feedback on quality manual

Initial thoughts:

If this is the 'top-level, tie it all together' document, then I think page 1 in particular needs some work. Eg:

  • What is and where is your policy on quality? (I didn't see one included, nor referenced)
  • Where's the required commitment to 9001 and to continual improvement? You say you 'encourage' CI, but there's no actual commitment.
  • Where will your 'measurable objectives' be? (no reference)
  • You refer to a 'collection of documents' - which are they?
I agree with this Jane! However, if page one were modified, I like such an approach to a company manual for the (quality) management system.
 

tmoreau

Inactive Registered Visitor
#9
Re: Need outsider feedback on quality manual

Excellent feedback, thank you. I don't mean for this post to be argumentative, I'm seeking to understand where the boundaries really are so that I can push the limits a little. We took the path of least resistance last time, and have lived with a burdensome failed system for many years as a result. I have taken on mgmt. rep. duties in addition to my regular job in design, this is not my area of expertise but I know whats right for my company when I see it.

1)
The quality policy is at the end of paragraph 1: "Continually Meeting Expectations". I inherited that, its on hats and coffee mugs, shirts and calendars, and every document.

2a)
Is it necessary to make a commitment to Iso9001? If we structure our business as we see fit, then discover that it 'just happens' to also meet the requirements of Iso, we should be able to seek registration. Trouble is, our current system is all too common in that its tacked on as a parallel thing to business as usual.

We must take full ownership of this thing, which means no garbled paragraphs of Quality this Quality that for Quality reasons jargon. At my last job, we developed the term "QS BS".

Thats why I wrote the Iso compliance statement, and not a stronger commitment. We are Not committed to Iso, we are committed to profitable business, and THATS deeply understood.

2b)
We have a Continuous Improvement form, which is an absolute joke. If things are to be improved continually, its going to happen in little bits and chunks, as a result of leadership fostering favorable conditions. It wont happen by prodding everyone in the back with a sword. When an idea is stumbled upon, nobody is going to shout out Eureka! and run for the CI form. Wouldn't the existing statements show/imply clear commitment to continuous improvement?

3)
Oops, no measurable objectives.

4)
Procedures are referenced in the flowcharts, ie (OP7.3) for design. Perhaps I'll have to state that more clearly somehow. Also instead of "following collection of documents" I might say "The quality manual and procedures".

I'll post a revised version on Monday.
 

JaneB

Inactive Registered Visitor
#10
Re: Need outsider feedback on quality manual

Excellent feedback, thank you. I don't mean for this post to be argumentative, I'm seeking to understand where the boundaries really are so that I can push the limits a little. We took the path of least resistance last time, and have lived with a burdensome failed system for many years as a result. I have taken on mgmt. rep. duties in addition to my regular job in design, this is not my area of expertise but I know whats right for my company when I see it.
You're welcome & don't worry - open & honest debate is valuable in my opinion, to share opinions and understanding.

I not only understand a desire to understand 'where the boundaries are', I also applaud your desire to push the limits and strongly encourage you to do that. I feel passionately that it is your organisation and your system, and you have a right to have it be that. The quality system is not one that should be done 'just to satisfy the auditor'. In my opinon, that's a waste of a lot of time and a seriously wasted opportunity. After all (as one of my clients said) "we work with it the other 364 days a year". Just so - though let's not overlook weekends & holidays ;)

So - go for it. Where 'the boundaries are' will depend to some extent on how good an auditor/CB you have. (There are good bad & indifferent ones.) But fear not - the best defence in case of a drongo is to know the Standard at least as well they do, and to know how/where to push back should that be needed. (And there's plenty of help here.)

1)
The quality policy is at the end of paragraph 1: "Continually Meeting Expectations". I inherited that, its on hats and coffee mugs, shirts and calendars, and every document.
Thought you might say that. It's a bit, um, vague to me & more of a description of something than an actual policy. But if you really want to go with it/are stuck with it, you may need to add a few bits in. Read on.:D

2a) Is it necessary to make a commitment to Iso9001?
.
Nope. Not at all.

But IF you want certification, you need to show you meet all requirements. See 5.3 b) which specifically calls for it. (After all, if you won't commit to doing it, why would anyone certify you? )

Trouble is, our current system is all too common in that its tacked on as a parallel thing to business as usual.
Oops - warning, warning, red flag!

We must take full ownership of this thing, which means no garbled paragraphs of Quality this Quality that for Quality reasons jargon.
Yes, I agree. Totally. Speaka da English, not da QS BS (good phrase). But also you see, why in my opinion you need to have a real policy on quality: what it means to you and what it means in your organisation. Then 'quality' stops being an obfuscating word used to beat people over the head with, and starts becoming something real.

2b) We have a Continuous Improvement form, which is an absolute joke. If things are to be improved continually, its going to happen in little bits and chunks, as a result of leadership fostering favorable conditions. It wont happen by prodding everyone in the back with a sword. When an idea is stumbled upon, nobody is going to shout out Eureka! and run for the CI form.
True! I think CI forms ARE a joke - a bad one. As you say, no one is gonna run to fill out a form to do it.

But as with the commitment to 9001, all the Standard is really asking you to do is commit to improvement - to getting better. Not just doing the same thing over & over.

Wouldn't the existing statements show/imply clear commitment to continuous improvement?
Um not entirely, though this could be a matter of opinion. I've been pinged a coupla times by auditors demanding a specific commitment to CI. I have to admit that 'encouragement' is not the same as commitment. (Although frankly my literal mind insists that if one has a management commitment to 9001, then that includes CI. But still...

3)Oops, no measurable objectives.
They do not have to be in your 'quality manual' - they can be and often are better as entirely separate documents. It was just a reminder. Again, look closely at 5.3.c) - how does your existing 'quality policy' do that? I can't quite see it.

4)instead of "following collection of documents" I might say "The quality manual and procedures".
That would do it for me, although I might be more inclined to say 'this document and our procedures' as a '4-page (or however many) is a small 'manual'
 

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