Oxygen gauge on Nitrogen supply

K

Kevin H

#11
I've got to disagree with posts made so far. I spent about 8 years working as a field engineer for Airco Industrial Gases (BOC Gases & I think Air Liquide now, I haven't kept track of the mergers). Pressure is pressure, doesn't matter if it's oxygen, nitrogen, helium, hydrogen, etc. What does matter is that guages identified as being cleaned for oxygen service have been specially cleaned to remove all traces of oils, greases, etc. that could react with oxgen and create a mini-bomb. You wouldn't believe what can burn or initiate a fire or explosion in an oxygen line - a particle of rust going too fast in a flow stream and hitting an elbow in a black iron pipe is enough to start a fire that will ignite the pipe!

What is important is that any flowmeters are correctly made for the gas being measured at the pressure and temperature it's being used at. Ideally, your flowmeter has label on it saying for nitrogen @ xyz pressure & yy temperature. Even that is not super critical, as long as you realize that you can develop a revised flow based on the gas, the pressure, the temperature of the gas, and do so. It's not an incredibly hard calculation - we did it a lot in the field for demonstrations when we didn't have the correct flowmeter (We absolutely did not use a fuel gas or notrogen flowmeter in an oxygen line.) On the other hand, that was 20 years ago, so the details are a little vague as to what equations to use. A lot of the flowmeters installed in large lines are pressure and temperature corrected automatically using pressure and temperature sensors.

As to shmos bypassing the planned safety of not being able to add a fuel gas cylinder to an oxygen line, our safety updates were full of very creative ones who managed to do things like that and the resulting catastrophes.

Oxygen safety was something we took seriously - I shut down 2 projects becasue of safety issues. In one, the customer's engineer had rejected our help in sizing piping and had selected a valve that was too small to adequately flow the amount of oxygen needed without exceeding safe velocities. In the second, the plant had cleaned black iron oxygen piping with acetone at the recomendation of their chemist. Acetone leaves a residue that is potentially explosive in an oxygen atmosphere. I refused to permit our piping to be connected to the plant's oxygen lines until the issue was corrected.
 
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ScottK

Not out of the crisis
Staff member
Super Moderator
#12
I've got to disagree with posts made so far. I spent about 8 years working as a field engineer for Airco Industrial Gases (BOC Gases & I think Air Liquide now, I haven't kept track of the mergers). Pressure is pressure, doesn't matter if it's oxygen, nitrogen, helium, hydrogen, etc. What does matter is that guages identified as being cleaned for oxygen service have been specially cleaned to remove all traces of oils, greases, etc. that could react with oxgen and create a mini-bomb. You wouldn't believe what can burn or initiate a fire or explosion in an oxygen line - a particle of rust going too fast in a flow stream and hitting an elbow in a black iron pipe is enough to start a fire that will ignite the pipe!

What is important is that any flowmeters are correctly made for the gas being measured at the pressure and temperature it's being used at. Ideally, your flowmeter has label on it saying for nitrogen @ xyz pressure & yy temperature. Even that is not super critical, as long as you realize that you can develop a revised flow based on the gas, the pressure, the temperature of the gas, and do so. It's not an incredibly hard calculation - we did it a lot in the field for demonstrations when we didn't have the correct flowmeter (We absolutely did not use a fuel gas or notrogen flowmeter in an oxygen line.) On the other hand, that was 20 years ago, so the details are a little vague as to what equations to use. A lot of the flowmeters installed in large lines are pressure and temperature corrected automatically using pressure and temperature sensors.

As to shmos bypassing the planned safety of not being able to add a fuel gas cylinder to an oxygen line, our safety updates were full of very creative ones who managed to do things like that and the resulting catastrophes.

Oxygen safety was something we took seriously - I shut down 2 projects becasue of safety issues. In one, the customer's engineer had rejected our help in sizing piping and had selected a valve that was too small to adequately flow the amount of oxygen needed without exceeding safe velocities. In the second, the plant had cleaned black iron oxygen piping with acetone at the recomendation of their chemist. Acetone leaves a residue that is potentially explosive in an oxygen atmosphere. I refused to permit our piping to be connected to the plant's oxygen lines until the issue was corrected.
You have worked for a couple of our major customers and I agree with your oxygen cleaning points. We have very strict procedures in place for part that are purchased "Clean for O2 Service" and we are audited by our customers for this.

However - The reason I advise changing the gauge isn't so much from an unsafe condition standpoint (as you say - pressure is pressure) but from an auditor standpoint.
If I was doing a compliance audit and I saw that I would latch on and dig-dig-dig to make sure there AREN'T any unsafe conditions elswhere. Because that just screams "sloppy" at me.
 
#14
WOW, a big :thanks: to everyone for their input.

Having had a night to think about it, I'm going to write it up as a non-conformity in the audit report. This will ensure it gets reported at Thursdays quality review meeting.

As for Al's last question, what would happen if you put oxygen in a gauge that has been used on nitrogen?

Regards

Paul
 
S

SteveK

#15
Paul,

As indicated in the thread, special care is needed with Oxygen supplies wrt grease, contamination, materials of construction etc due to the possibility of ignition or explosion. This is why gas regulators (e.g. for reducing 200bar to typically 4 or 7 bar) when they are used for medical purposes are tested for Adiabatic Compression (ignition) to ISO 10524-1. Other than the labelling on their faces, bourbon gauges for Oxygen or Nitrogen (or another gas) have the same construction (as Kevin H indicated pressure is pressure). Obviously gas regulators (certainly in a medical context) should have correct labelling on their gauges (as would be specified by the gauge purchaser), but so long the gauge was oxygen compatible (see first point), in answer to the new question – nothing! Regulator fittings (in the UK - Bull Nose or Pin Index) that connect to the cylinder are the gas specific component, together with gas specific outlets (that would connect e.g. to a gas specific hose assembly - again in a medical context). If you were naughty, you could if it is possible, remove the front of the gauge and remove or change the gas reference.

Steve
:)
 
#16
Steve

Thank you for the clear explanation. The plan is to change the gauges with nitrogen specific ones and chuck the oxygen ones.

It'll give the facilites team something to do............

:thanx:

Paul
 

ScottK

Not out of the crisis
Staff member
Super Moderator
#17
As for Al's last question, what would happen if you put oxygen in a gauge that has been used on nitrogen?

Regards

Paul
Nothing.

We use nitogen to set and test most of our "clean for O2 service" parts. In fact, in order to mistake proof our assembly operation we use no compressed air in our assembly or cleaning areas at all. All of our testing and setting is done with Nitrogen and, on occasion, Helium.

The reason for this is that compressed air is generally lubricated and we can't have those lubricants getting into the parts.
 
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