Performance vs. Effectiveness - ISO 9001:2015 par. 9.1.1

armani

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#1
Can somebody tell me a clear difference between performance and effectiveness - e.g. : see ISO 9001:2015 par. 9.1.1 "performance and effectiveness of QMS"?
If a process is effective (vs. objectives established), it doesn't mean is performant? I mean, objectives are established for performance, no?
 
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pkost

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#2
I interpret this to be: performance is what it is regardless of objectives. e.g. complaints are closed on average in 10 days

If the objective is to close complaints in 5 days the process is ineffective (when considered in isolation).

This is overly simplified for illustrative purposes, but should help
 

armani

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#3
But how can I assess performance, if I haven't established objectives? ISO 9001 requires assessing performance...
 

dsanabria

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#4
Can somebody tell me a clear difference between performance and effectiveness - e.g. : see ISO 9001:2015 par. 9.1.1 "performance and effectiveness of QMS"?
If a process is effective (vs. objectives established), it doesn't mean is performant? I mean, objectives are established for performance, no?
FROM the IAQG Dictionary

Performance = aspects of an item observed or measured from its operation or function.
NOTE 1: These aspects are generally quantified. (EN 13701:2001) [IAQG-history]

Effectiveness = extent to which planned activities are realized and planned results achieved. (ISO 9000:2005) [IAQG-history]
 

tony s

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#5
Using the definition of ISO 9000:2015:

3.7.8 Performance - measurable result
Note 1. Performance can relate to either quantitative or qualitative findings.

3.7.11 Effectiveness - extent to which planned activities are realized and planned results are achieved


Performance may not necessarily relate to positive result. Hence the term "poor performance".

Effectiveness has levels such as terms like "to some extent", "to the fullest extent"
 

armani

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#8
Back to my original question, can I assess performance without assessing effectiveness and viceversa??
Why ISO specifies the 2 of them if they are so close related?
 

tony s

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#9
Back to my original question, can I assess performance without assessing effectiveness and viceversa??
Why ISO specifies the 2 of them if they are so close related?
Looking back at the old standard (i.e. 2008), from clause 1 to 8, the word "performance" is noticeably used not in conjunction with "effectiveness". Even ISO 9000:2005 doesn't have a definition for "performance". Thanks to armani for bringing the issue re: performance and effectiveness.

I've noticed that in 2008 the phrase "improve the effectiveness of the QMS" was mentioned at least 3 times (in clauses 5.3b, 8.1c and 8.5.1) while the 2015 version has no mention of it (from clause 1 to 10).

IMHO the 2015 version would like to give us additional guidance by teaming up "performance" with "effectiveness". As if by saying, "effectiveness can only be determined or evaluated by obtaining measurable results (i.e definition of performance)".

Try to switch "measurable result" in place of "performance" in the statements of the 2015 version. It may bring some pondering.

Hope this makes sense or am I drinking too much coffee?:drunk:
 

dsanabria

Quite Involved in Discussions
#10
Back to my original question, can I assess performance without assessing effectiveness and viceversa??
Why ISO specifies the 2 of them if they are so close related?
Yes - you can measure all the performance of a process but you should be looking at the effectiveness of the performance.

or simply put, when you measure the goals of production - (performance), did production meet the goals (effective or nor effective) established by management?
 
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