Personal Notes on Production Floor vs. Documented Work Instructions

J

JaneB

Personal notes should be prohibited. The risk of error is too big, controlling personal notes is a waste of time, information is lost and worse, improvement is blocked.
And herein lies a problm of making general sweeping decisions on a very general topic, without looking at the specifics. For example, if the operators are just keeping the kind of notes that say 'hey dummy, remember to check THREE times before you do X!' because he/she has a particular problem doing that, what's the problem? If you want to ban these and make your WIs cover EVERY possible contingency and EVERY possible little fine detail, there's another risk: they get too damned wordy & long.

It is also important for the purpose of THIS THREAD that the OP has not given any indication the official work instruction is not followed, merely that there are operator notes about the work instruction present at the work station.
Exactly. I'd be practical about it (eg, via audit as already suggested): what kind of notes? Is there much risk?
Wes again:
I fear many auditors fall into the trap of imposing their own sense of right and wrong on a process they observe. Throughout this thread most experienced folks have agreed there is no "shall" presented by the OP which has been breached.
We might all agree the management of the OP's target organization "should" be proactive and address the issue...
Yes.

...either making private notes acceptable or banning them, BUT they "ought" to be able to provide cogent reasoning, communicated to all pertinent staff, for whichever decision they make, not merely present it as an administrative fiat akin to forcing men with shaved heads to wear hairnets because "some" people with long hair may get it caught in machinery.
Yes indeedy! Lovely example. :applause: And see what effect that has on the men (or women) with shaved heads ... and I assure you, it won't be positive.

We should be expected to understand risks and risk mitigation, and that process shouldn't include knee-jerk reactions. If there is a significant risk of something bad happening, the appropriate measures should be invoked, but risk should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis and not by a Pavlovian response.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Nor this:
Issuing blanket edicts (when there's no substantial evidence that an issue is widespread or likely to have untoward consequences) is a path to fear and loathing.
And how! This kind of silliness is another reason why people back away from 'quality systems' - for heaven's sake, let's not leave practicality and commonsense - let alone the need for evidence and decisions based on facts !behind at the door of Quality!
 
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S

Sorin

And herein lies a problm of making general sweeping decisions on a very general topic, without looking at the specifics. For example, if the operators are just keeping the kind of notes that say 'hey dummy, remember to check THREE times before you do X!' because he/she has a particular problem doing that, what's the problem? If you want to ban these and make your WIs cover EVERY possible contingency and EVERY possible little fine detail, there's another risk: they get too damned wordy & long.
I have the feeling I was not clear enough on why PERSONAL notes shall be banned on working floor/desk.

Let's give it another try: because they are PERSONAL.
And by being personal, they are outside of the system.

As for the issue of long WI/P that's a PERSONAL issue. IMO, a WI/P should not be more than a page. Letter/A4 format. But that's just me.
 
J

JaneB

I have the feeling I was not clear enough on why PERSONAL notes shall be banned on working floor/desk.
No, I think you were quite clear. But I disagree with your stance.

Let's give it another try: because they are PERSONAL.
And by being personal, they are outside of the system.
Yeah... but so are people's thoughts & feelings & responses :lol:

IMO you can't turn everything into a system. I agree with you - strongly! - that a management system is a highly important thing. And how! I agree with your point about improvement, I agree that one needs standards and consistency, I agree about the need for procedures to be controlled, etc etc.

Where we disagree, I think, is that I'm willing to accept some degree of individual latitude and flexibility. You don't seem to want to. Fine - that's you, this is me. (No offence given or taken :nope: ) Healthy disagreement is just that - healthy! :yes:

Now, IF I audited (or observed) that there was highly important info migrating into 'personal notes' that were then being relied upon instead of the official documents, I'd deginitely take that as a bad thing, and would act upon it. BUT that would be on the basis of specific evidence and facts. If I saw the odd sticky note/prompt aid, I'd look at what was in it - perhaps it's something that could and should be brought into the system as an improvement? Terrific, let's do it. But also, perhaps not, and it's just a thing that they've written. For example, many manual workers here are non-native English speakers - you think they don't make their own notes?? in their own language?? Do you want to ban that too? To me, it smacks a bit of the Big Brother approach - thou Shalt Do Nothing Except If We Authorise You to Do It. Fine - if your company has the resources to rewrite, control the documents into every language required, go do it. Few do.

As for the issue of long WI/P that's a PERSONAL issue.
Funnily enough, here I disagree - no, it's a company decision! Not personal at all.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
I have the feeling I was not clear enough on why PERSONAL notes shall be banned on working floor/desk.

Let's give it another try: because they are PERSONAL.
And by being personal, they are outside of the system.

As for the issue of long WI/P that's a PERSONAL issue. IMO, a WI/P should not be more than a page. Letter/A4 format. But that's just me.
Do you think that operators should have to consult work instructions every time the process is operated, and for every step? Is it possible for a process to be operated by memory? If no one is consulting the work instructions, how can you know that the process is being operated in accordance with them, and that operators aren't doing things their own way? How is operating a process by memory (which is personal) substantively different from using notes that are in concert with the work instructions?
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
How is operating a process by memory (which is personal) substantively different from using notes that are in concert with the work instructions?
Exactly. :applause:

Just try "prohibiting" personal thought. Better eliminate training. No need for education. We have procedures!:bonk: Where are the thought police, anyhow? :bonk:

Bottom line for me -- and it really isn't (or shouldn't be) much more difficult than this: "Is the process being conducted as per the controlled procedure/WI and/or official training, or isn't it?"
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
Just try "prohibiting" personal thought. Better eliminate training. No need for education. We have procedures!:bonk: Where are the thought police, anyhow? :bonk:
Personal notes: "Bread, Milk, Butter"? Probably won't affect the process.

Bottom line for me -- and it really isn't (or shouldn't be) much more difficult than this: "Is the process being conducted as per the controlled procedure/WI and/or official training, or isn't it?"
OK...so, let's think this all the way through. Personal note, reflects past revision of controlled procedure (since it is not controlled), generates scrap or some other process misery (why be proactive? - wait until an audit or rejection proves a problem exists). Now, what is the corrective action?
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
OK...so, let's think this all the way through. Personal note, reflects past revision of controlled procedure (since it is not controlled), generates scrap or some other process misery (why be proactive? - wait until an audit or rejection proves a problem exists). Now, what is the corrective action?
Why assume that if an operator's notes are in consonance with the official documentation that they won't be revised (if necessary) if the requirements change? Isn't the fact that (a) the process is being operated correctly and (b) the notes match the official procedure evidence of anything? If we have to continually assume that operators are out to get us, what's the corrective action?
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
Why assume that if an operator's notes are in consonance with the official documentation that they won't be revised (if necessary) if the requirements change? Isn't the fact that (a) the process is being operated correctly and (b) the notes match the official procedure evidence of anything? If we have to continually assume that operators are out to get us, what's the corrective action?
That was not the scenario I posed. I posed if the notes were not meeting the revision AND there was a product or process failure - not an assumption, but evidenced to be the case, what is the corrective action? I do not think this is an unrealistic scenario, and to assume that it can never happen is probably less realistic than that it can. I did already accept your assumption by including in the scenario that no proactive activity was in place, which would permit the notes until a process loss occurred (even though proactive - even predictive - activity used to be though of as a hallmark of an effective system. Might not be lean - as you mention, why do anything and invest effort until a problem is evident?)
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
That was not the scenario I posed. I posed if the notes were not meeting the revision AND there was a product or process failure - not an assumption, but evidenced to be the case, what is the corrective action? I do not think this is an unrealistic scenario, and to assume that it can never happen is probably less realistic than that it can. I did already accept your assumption by including in the scenario that no proactive activity was in place, which would permit the notes until a process loss occurred (even though proactive - even predictive - activity used to be though of as a hallmark of an effective system. Might not be lean - as you mention, why do anything and invest effort until a problem is evident?)
The corrective action would be the same as in any other case when an operator fails to operate as required. Where I think we're at odds is that some here assume that bad things can happen because of notes. That's not correct. Bad things happen because people don't follow the process as required.
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
Where I think we're at odds is that some here assume that bad things can happen because of notes. That's not correct.
I disagree, bad things can happen because people don't follow the process as required by relying on notes that can be out of date. Sure, it is easy to pose the possibility that they will not happen - but quite frankly that is a no risk, non-issue. If you have a copy of a work instruction that is out of date, you have a process you can follow to find where the process failed as a route for corrective action. Notes do not - so no, the corrective action will not be the same. That makes it still a valid open question.

Ignoring the possibility by assuming the best is fun...we should all have the opportunity to enjoy that glee for the entire quality system. Wait until audits and or rejections to worry about anything, because we can not assume anything bad will ever happen. I think there may be some folks out there that subscribed to that as a lean approach - invest effort and taking the shortest apparent route as possible. But, I must be old school, and still look for proactive ways to prevent problems.
 
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