Personal Notes on Production Floor vs. Documented Work Instructions

S

Sorin

1.Do you think that operators should have to consult work instructions every time the process is operated, and for every step?

2.Is it possible for a process to be operated by memory?

3.If no one is consulting the work instructions, how can you know that the process is being operated in accordance with them, and that operators aren't doing things their own way?

4.How is operating a process by memory (which is personal) substantively different from using notes that are in concert with the work instructions?
OK…

1.Operators shall/should consult WI as often as it is outlined in their process procedure. That could be every set-up, once a day, every shift, every time they change the raw material, etc, depending on the specifics of the part(s), customer reqs, eng. reqs, etc..
It could be also for every critical step if it’s outlined so in their WI/P.

2.Possible? Yes. Should it be so? Depends on the complexity of the process, how many critical steps are, how critical reqs are managed, etc.

3.That’s up to the company in question, sooner or later they will run around like headless chicken trying to work out what is happening and how in the name of god the operators did not realize changes were made to specs, after all the WI/P were updated. Oooops! I suppose someone forgot to update the PERSONAL notes….

4.You forgot I banned all personal notes on the working floor…I cannot answer you that question…as for operating from memory, I can attest (documented) for at least 10000 $ CAN of scrap due to operating set-ups from memory and based on PERSONAL notes.
 
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Mike S.

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Bob,

If your "proactive ways" are assuming the worst all the time you must have lots to do. :cool:

Is being proactive assuming there is a boogie man behind every rock, or a non-conformance behind every single non-officially-documented thought, note, or scrap of paper?

You're assuming that notes never work for the positive -- only for evil. Maybe my notes are preventing rejections, huh?

I'll say this, I have used personal notes on WIs for over 20 years, and I cannot recall a single instance where my notes resulted in a NC. Can I prove they prevented a NC? No, but I believe they have. I think I have found more than one case where the use of outdated WIs have caused NCs. Should the CA be prohibiting the printing of any WI?

Does that make me non-lean or non-proactive?
 

bobdoering

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If your "proactive ways" are assuming the worst all the time you must have lots to do. :cool:
On the other hand, assuming the best all of the time sure makes FMEAs very short, huh? :tg:

You're assuming that notes never work for the positive -- only for evil. Maybe my notes are preventing rejections, huh?

I'll say this, I have used personal notes on WIs for over 20 years, and I cannot recall a single instance where my notes resulted in a NC. Can I prove they prevented a NC? No, but I believe they have. I think I have found more than one case where the use of outdated WIs have caused NCs. Should the CA be prohibiting the printing of any WI?
Nope, just means your luck has not run out, yet. Interesting that WIs are out of date, but notes are not. That's an odd paradox. Sounds like your system should obsolete WIs and go 100% note, huh? Or, maybe correct some communication flaws in the controlled process. Just seems odd to try to justify a totally uncontrolled system as optimum. Sounds terribly back yard garage - but we know some folks prefer that...a lot.


Does that make me non-lean or non-proactive?
Yes. :agree1:
 

Sidney Vianna

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I can attest (documented) for at least 10000 $ CAN of scrap due to operating set-ups from memory and based on PERSONAL notes.
Like they say: once bitten, twice shy. Can you quantify (monetarily) the lost time in productivity because operators are not producing, wasting spending time going to a remote bench to find the proper work instruction data that should be readily available to them?

The reality is this: There are all kinds of systems out there; good ones and bad ones. There are good systems where the operators have ALL they need, readily available, including work instructions. And there are TERRIBLE systems out there, as well; systems where the operator HAS to rely on personal notes to get the job done RIGHT, because the revision of work instructions take longer than it should.

There are personal notes that exist for very good reasons and help to get the job done. There are notes that only exist because the operator is a lazy individual and brings all kind of risks to the integrity of the job.

Me, Jim and a few others are saying: before you BAN the practice of personal notes, try to understand why they exist. It can be the case of the system putting impediments to the operators performing their work effectively and efficiently. The note might be a work around the problem, in order to get the job done. Until the system is fixed, the notes might add value. Not only to the operator, but to the organization.

Sorin and Bobdoering are saying: I really don't care if there is a good reason or not for notes to exist. They are prohibited. End of discussion.

Very telling about how the two sides stand on the "people involvement" principle of ISO 9000.
 
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bobdoering

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Sorin and Bobdoering are saying: I really don't care if there is a good reason or not for notes to exist. They are prohibited. End of discussion.
You are either oversimplifying my position or missing the point altogether. I agree, try to understand why they exist - then eliminate the systemic problem that contributes to their existence. Do that with the goal to eliminate them because they do pose a real risk, as there is no system to ensure they are correct.

Now you can end the discussion.
 

JoCam

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It's quite simple. Whatever is being jotted onto these notes to assist the Operators, jog their memory, make things easier or whatever other reason exists should be put into the form of a controlled, approved document and positioned at the point of use. In these situations I use "single point lessons", which are usually one laminated page illustrating the necessary information, sometimes with the aid of photographs or drawings.

In situations where parameters may need to be adjusted from those specified in the associated work instruction, or indeed the single point lesson, the jottings should be entered onto the relevant job pack or works order for historical reasons.

Whatever method is chosen, the output is a controlled process, something that handwritten, uncontrolled notes do not signify.
 
S

Sorin

Very telling about how the two sides stand on the "people involvement" principle of ISO 9000.
Very strong in this post is the bias....how about accepting that we are not single holders of the absolute truth?

Do I feel that there is no place to accept one position without getting the stigma?
 

SteelMaiden

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I think a lot of information is being read into these discussions. Did anybody say that people were having to go to "remote" locations to get work instructions? If so, ISO requirements are not being met. There were other comments about memory being the same as notes...come on, how far can we take that?

People do memorize how to do their jobs, that is why a system needs to have some process in place to notify people when their work instructions, or whatever you want to call them, change. If you allow every operator to create their own set of notes, why would you bother to create work instructions?

How do we know that people are doing their work per the documented procedures and work instructions? Well, that is why supervisors should be dealing with their folks every day, to see if things need changes, or to make sure that people are following procedure. We also have competency and qualification review.

If there is a written procedure or work instruction in place, and you are following some set of uncontrolled notes, you are not in compliance to the standard. If you have notes to remind you to do things that are not otherwise documented in your quality system, knock yourself out.
 

Sidney Vianna

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Sorin and Bobdoering are saying: I really don't care if there is a good reason or not for notes to exist. They are prohibited. End of discussion.
You are either oversimplifying my position or missing the point altogether.
Very strong in this post is the bias....how about accepting that we are not single holders of the absolute truth?

Do I feel that there is no place to accept one position without getting the stigma?
If you feel that I misrepresented the summary of your positions about allowing notes in the workplace, please go right ahead and provide your own summary. But, based on what I read from your posts, that is what I understood your position is.
 
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