Personal Notes on Production Floor vs. Documented Work Instructions

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Sidney Vianna

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How ironic. Who in this discussion seems to be the bearer of the "indisputable truth"?

The one that says
There is no place in the system for personal notes
or the ones that say
Notes might be beneficial, in absence of an effective system
The first does not want rebuttal to the mandate. The second one stipulates that there might be valid reasons for the "unwanted" notes. Which approach is the totalitarian one?
 
S

samsung

How ironic. Who in this discussion seems to be the bearer of the "indisputable truth"?

The one that says or the ones that say The first does not want rebuttal to the mandate. The second one stipulates that there might be valid reasons for the "unwanted" notes. Which approach is the totalitarian one?
It's just like asking 'who is right' ? Whatever one posts here are just the opinions and I don't think anyone of us ever tries to prove one's opinions better than that of others' and if our opinions can not stand on their own merit we should be questioning ourselves to make sure we honestly believe what we feel is right.

Just my opinion.......may or may not appear true.
 

SteelMaiden

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Notes might be beneficial, in absence of an effective system? The only thing that is beneficial in absence of an effective system is making the system effective. :rolleyes: Notes sure as H.E. double hockey sticks aren't goint to correct that problem.
 

Sidney Vianna

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Notes might be beneficial, in absence of an effective system? The only thing that is beneficial in absence of an effective system is making the system effective. :rolleyes: Notes sure as H.E. double hockey sticks aren't goint to correct that problem.
Steel, I have no idea of how many systems you've had the chance to assess over the years. Please answer me this simple question:

In a very diverse, multi-lingual, multi-cultural organization (typical in places like California, for example), with a large number of complex work instructions, and a workforce with limited command of the English language, how do you propose to ensure conformance to work instructions, in the absence of personal notes?
 

SteelMaiden

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Sydney, I must be reading that wrong....ensure conformance to work instructions, in the absence of personal notes....can you rephrase that, because I don't know how I would ensure conformance to work instructions using personal notes.

How would I ensure that people are performing work in accordance to their work instructions/procedures? I think I stated that that is part of the supervisor's job. Assess that his crew is doing what they are supposed to do, how they are supposed to do it. Then there are the requirements to assess competency (and in some systems, qualification of workers) and last of all, internal audits should assess that the processes are being carried out per documented procedures/work instructons where needed.

I am not saying that every job needs a work instruction, and I have jobs that I do that I use some notes for (I have a set in front of me right now that shows me how to get some information out of our process control software that runds the entire plant.) But, if there is a work instruction out there, I would expect that that is the document that people work from, not handwritten notes. No, I don't play kwality kop. But if the managers here found someone doing a job the way they wanted to, and not the way it is described in the quality system, there would be some problems, and maybe even one of those infamous written verbal warnings that was talked about yesterday. It matters not how big, how many languages. If you have documented procedures/work instructions they must be available, and they must be presented in such a way that they are understandable to anyone doing the job and they need to be followed.

Don't give me "I don't know how many systems you've assessed". Just because I am not an auditor for a registrar, it doesn't mean that I cannot read the standard. :rolleyes: I am sure you didn't mean that to sound like it did. At least I hope you didn't. :mg: If your system doesn't work, your people don't have access, it isn't written so that all can understand, and the only way you can get stuff done is to supplement what you have with handwritten notes, your system is not implemented per the requirements. In the real world, hand written notes cause problems, as stated by others. If A crew does it differently than C crew because they've found out the instructions are not correct, you will be seeing nonconforming product, or worse, someone will end up getting hurt.
 

Sidney Vianna

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Don't give me "I don't know how many systems you've assessed". Just because I am not an auditor for a registrar, it doesn't mean that I cannot read the standard. :rolleyes: I am sure you didn't mean that to sound like it did. At least I hope you didn't. :mg: If your system doesn't work, your people don't have access, it isn't written so that all can understand, and the only way you can get stuff done is to supplement what you have with handwritten notes, your system is not implemented per the requirements. In the real world, hand written notes cause problems, as stated by others. If A crew does it differently than C crew because they've found out the instructions are not correct, you will be seeing nonconforming product, or worse, someone will end up getting hurt.
My comment was not intended as anything bad. But I can attest to you that people that audit on a full time basis MUST abundantly exercise the expectation of having to be open minded. People that audit a "narrow" sector of suppliers never experience the multiplicity of challenges and solutions that organizations are faced with. I am sure you can read and understand the requirements of the standard. But interpretations do vary. We differ on the interpretation here. In the real world, notes do cause problems. But they also solve challenges. Otherwise, they would not exist. We can be academic or pragmatic about it. I choose the latter. As an auditor, I must have objective evidence of failure, before an NC is forthcoming.
 

Mike S.

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Nope, just means your luck has not run out, yet. Interesting that WIs are out of date, but notes are not. That's an odd paradox. Sounds like your system should obsolete WIs and go 100% note, huh? Or, maybe correct some communication flaws in the controlled process. Just seems odd to try to justify a totally uncontrolled system as optimum. Sounds terribly back yard garage - but we know some folks prefer that...a lot.
Hah. For a few years in the 80s, before ISO 9001, my Technicians' notes were the work instructions! I did chalk-talk theory stuff, then demonstrated the task, and they took notes all along as they needed, then they practiced, asked questions as they arose, then they tested out on the task when they were ready. If the process changed we all got together and went over the changes together. I had one hell of a great staff of people and our accuracy rate was exceptional. Our company kicked the butts of our Japanese competitors and we won several industry awards. I guess it worked. :cool:

Now my "back-yard garage" -- where supplemental notes on official WIs are used -- produces critical parts for aircraft you fly commercially on and aircraft and defense systems that protect us all. I handle probably half of all quality escapes myself and can't find one in the last 2 years (records I have close at hand) due to notes on work instructions.

But of course your theories hold more water in all cases than my facts.
 

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
I must have objective evidence of failure, before an NC is forthcoming.
And that is how it should be for a registration auditor. :agree: But, in the real world, where the work is actually done (read that as where a product is produced and shipped to a customer), loose cannons sink ships. I'll write my guys up in a heartbeat if they are not following the documented procedures, especially if they have found a better way and have not shared it with the rest of their dept. Improvement is the name of the game, and there is no improvement in performing a task in a dozen different ways.
 

Jim Wynne

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And that is how it should be for a registration auditor. :agree: But, in the real world, where the work is actually done (read that as where a product is produced and shipped to a customer), loose cannons sink ships. I'll write my guys up in a heartbeat if they are not following the documented procedures, especially if they have found a better way and have not shared it with the rest of their dept. Improvement is the name of the game, and there is no improvement in performing a task in a dozen different ways.
The same strawman keeps popping up in this thread. There is a difference between following procedures, sharing improvement ide as, and having some simple mnemonic device that (a) is consistent with the documented requirements and (b) doesn't involve any sort of improvement. If the use of personal notes is the result of some deficit in the written documentation or in the operator, we should take steps to correct the problem. But if neither of those things is true, we should leave well enough alone and find something useful to do.
 
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