PFMEA/control plan question- PLEASE HELP !

[jmsaunders21]

Hello ! I work for a new manufacturing site that is tier one to general motors. The direction is to get IATF certification later this year. But there has been a slew of different consultants and hands on all the documentation thus far. So my dilemma is the PFMEAS and control plans.. they are like nothing I've ever seen before. They are hard to understand, missing controls, doesn't include all the operations. They have a lot of prior OEM management that work at the plant, so i need to convince them of my issues. Question is .. there are no part numbers mentioned in the control plan. In the header they have the final part number to the customer. But I thought you had to include all the parts numbers of all the components that were received in and then in each operations on the control plans, and then it was to be included in the work instructions to the operators. The currently just listed out the part description . I'm used to using part numbers in all the process documentation. My question is .. can you do it the way they did it without using part numbers ??? Or what is the requirement from AIAG if you are required to use part numbers?

 

[Matt's Quality Handle]

It's been about 4 years since I've been in automotive, but I don't believe that part numbers are required in the control plans or PFMEA's. Unless it's been removed in the last few years (pre 2015/2016 revisions), part and process "families" were specifically cited as acceptable.

For example, in our process, we were stamping heat shields from coils of sheet metal. There were different coil widths, thicknesses, metals, and types of those metals that went into our part portfolio. Receiving inspection handled all coils the same. They checked the material certs from the vendor and miced the thickness. I know for certain that we didn't multiply the PFMEA across all of the different part numbers, and I'm pretty sure that we didn't have a separate control plan for each part number.

I've always though that the standards did a pretty good job in not requiring documents for their own sake, and allowing efforts to avoid repetitive, non-value added activities (like generating and maintaining identical control plans/pfmeas to the part number level).

 

[jmsaunders21]

It's been about 4 years since I've been in automotive, but I don't believe that part numbers are required in the control plans or PFMEA's. Unless it's been removed in the last few years (pre 2015/2016 revisions), part and process "families" were specifically cited as acceptable.

For example, in our process, we were stamping heat shields from coils of sheet metal. There were different coil widths, thicknesses, metals, and types of those metals that went into our part portfolio. Receiving inspection handled all coils the same. They checked the material certs from the vendor and miced the thickness. I know for certain that we didn't multiply the PFMEA across all of the different part numbers, and I'm pretty sure that we didn't have a separate control plan for each part number.

I've always though that the standards did a pretty good job in not requiring documents for their own sake, and allowing efforts to avoid repetitive, non-value added activities (like generating and maintaining identical control plans/pfmeas to the part number level).

Hi ! thank you for replying .. I dont think I explained well enough. We do assembly, So in the final part number that is shipped to the customer, there are many different part numbers that we get from our suppliers(about 500 part #)'s that we assembly all together. So what I was asking was that .. wouldn't you need to include all the different part numbers that are received in and then when they are used in each operation. I wasnt asking if you needed a separate control plan for each component. I come from a stamping background as well and in our control plans it listed part numbers for the coils and all the welding components we used at each operation and they flowed to the work instructions.

 

[blackholequasar]

So are you saying like a BOM to accompany the final shipped item?

 

[Matt's Quality Handle]

Hi ! thank you for replying .. I dont think I explained well enough. We do assembly, So in the final part number that is shipped to the customer, there are many different part numbers that we get from our suppliers(about 500 part #)'s that we assembly all together. So what I was asking was that .. wouldn't you need to include all the different part numbers that are received in and then when they are used in each operation. I wasnt asking if you needed a separate control plan for each component. I come from a stamping background as well and in our control plans it listed part numbers for the coils and all the welding components we used at each operation and they flowed to the work instructions.

You're welcome.

In our practice, the control plans were very non-specific and referred to the Work Instructions as much as possible. For example, the control plan for our weld clip station would say something like "clip as specified in work instructions." The work instructions were what the operators used on a daily basis, and would specify all of the required steps both for processing and quality control. The control plans weren't present on the floor (but they were accessible).

I'm not saying that it's the best or only way to do it, but we were certified and didn't have a problem with either second or third party audits. Again, my experience with the standards is that they mandate that you have a system that is adequately designed, and that system is being followed.

 

[jmsaunders21]

So are you saying like a BOM to accompany the final shipped item?

Well in a way .. You have to include all the processes in your control plans .. so in the receiving or incoming (however you refer to it) should it list the actual part number that you are receiving in ? not the part description. In my previous company everything had part numbers .. so in the control plans, in the receiving part of document it listed "STEEL PART #15778415'' - then that steel number was listed in the stamping step and in the work instructions so the operators knew what steel to use. What im asking is .. is that a requirement to include part numbers in your control plans or can you just spell out the part description for example ' STEEL' instead of the steel part number.

 

[Johnnymo62]

AIAG PFMEA 4th Edition, DFMEA page 26-27 example form: system, subsystem, component, area B, is defined as: system, subsystem or component name and number. PFMEA on pages 74-75 item, area B, is the same. So, the "number" would the part number, in my opinion.

 

[John C. Abnet]

Hello ! I work for a new manufacturing site that is tier one to general motors. The direction is to get IATF certification later this year. But there has been a slew of different consultants and hands on all the documentation thus far. So my dilemma is the PFMEAS and control plans.. they are like nothing I've ever seen before. They are hard to understand, missing controls, doesn't include all the operations. They have a lot of prior OEM management that work at the plant, so i need to convince them of my issues. Question is .. there are no part numbers mentioned in the control plan. In the header they have the final part number to the customer. But I thought you had to include all the parts numbers of all the components that were received in and then in each operations on the control plans, and then it was to be included in the work instructions to the operators. The currently just listed out the part description . I'm used to using part numbers in all the process documentation. My question is .. can you do it the way they did it without using part numbers ??? Or what is the requirement from AIAG if you are required to use part numbers?

Good day @jmsaunders21 ;
No, there is no specific requirement for part numbers., although your customer may ask for it.

If not already, then use this as an opportunity to build relationship with your customer. I assume there is an STA or SQE assigned to you by GM. Call them. Speak to them about how your system works and WHY it is effective (if it is), and get their input now instead of needing to review it later
GM has supplier quality handbook and CSR. Study them to make sure there is nothing in there that specific (I don't remember anything that specific in regard to PFMEA).

Remember, your customer is looking out for their selfish interest. Find a way to do that while ALSO ensuring your organization's needs are met. For example, if you have the same part or process to multiple companies, find a way to serve all requirements so you don't end up with redundant documents to manage.

In the past, I have had success in creating foundation PFMEA (specific to our PROCESS (e.g. resistance welding), and then we had a
FORMAL cover sheet that we applied that had all the CUSTOMER specific information on it...(part number etc...) Result= ONE PFMEA for our organization that could serve MULTIPLE part numbers/customers.


Hope this helps.
Be well.

 

[Joseph B.]

Hello ! I work for a new manufacturing site that is tier one to general motors. The direction is to get IATF certification later this year. But there has been a slew of different consultants and hands on all the documentation thus far. So my dilemma is the PFMEAS and control plans.. they are like nothing I've ever seen before. They are hard to understand, missing controls, doesn't include all the operations. They have a lot of prior OEM management that work at the plant, so i need to convince them of my issues. Question is .. there are no part numbers mentioned in the control plan. In the header they have the final part number to the customer. But I thought you had to include all the parts numbers of all the components that were received in and then in each operations on the control plans, and then it was to be included in the work instructions to the operators. The currently just listed out the part description . I'm used to using part numbers in all the process documentation. My question is .. can you do it the way they did it without using part numbers ??? Or what is the requirement from AIAG if you are required to use part numbers?

Side question @jmsaunders21 - you say "get IATF cert later this year"; so you are just starting now? or has there been work ongoing for sometime? "later this year" is not possible if you are just starting now.