Poll: Should auditors promote the process approach?

[ISO 9001 Guy]

I have just about had enough of this thread - I am running out of patience. If I want jargon, I can peel back the covers of the ISO Standards. But I am asking YOU for plain-speak: for clarity and practical examples that would reinforce your points of what would satisfactorily indicate your client company is applying the process approach.

Ugh! (I was hoping not to just spoon feed it. You had previously asked for me to educate you, and just giving this information to you might not be the best education. Do you want answers or do you want to understand?)

Okay, first, let's be clear about something. Yes or no. Does a QMS defined by the element-by-element approach suggest that a process approach is being applied?

(This is different from, the question of "Is a process approach being applied?")

 

[Jim Wynne]

I know that, Jennifer. Can we learn a little on the way? We will arrive at your answer, I promise. Let's not just put it on ME to educate YOU. (I'm trying to incorporate some accelerated learning techniques here.) Play along, will you?

You're jerking people's chains here, doing all you can to avoid the issues raised and keep going in circles. Your condescension isn't cute or clever; it's insulting. If it's just an echo chamber you're looking for, I'll be pleased to go on to more fruitful pursuits and let you enjoy the sound of your own voice.

 

[Jen Kirley]

Ugh! (I was hoping not to just spoon feed it. You had previously asked for me to educate you, and just giving this information to you might not be the best education. Do you want answers or do you want to understand?)

(This is different from, the question of "Is a process approach being applied?")

I want answers. Don't try to educate me. I already understand what ISO wants. I want to know what YOU would accept as evidence the client organization is applying the process approach. For the last time, what objective evidence you would find acceptable?

Okay, first, let's be clear about something. Yes or no. Does a QMS defined by the element-by-element approach suggest that a process approach is being applied?

Based on finding how you described your view of the element-to-element approach in another thread, no.

 

[dknox4]

Ugh! (I was hoping not to just spoon feed it. You had previously asked for me to educate you, and just giving this information to you might not be the best education. Do you want answers or do you want to understand?)

Okay, first, let's be clear about something. Yes or no. Does a QMS defined by the element-by-element approach suggest that a process approach is being applied?

(This is different from, the question of "Is a process approach being applied?")

Given your demonstrated inability to provide clear definition of your point(s) and answer very direct and clear questions, I believe an attempt by you to "promote" the process approach would not end well.

 

[Marc]

You're jerking people's chains here, doing all you can to avoid the issues raised and keep going in circles. Your condescension isn't cute or clever; it's insulting. If it's just an echo chamber you're looking for, I'll be pleased to go on to more fruitful pursuits and let you enjoy the sound of your own voice.

Ugh! (I was hoping not to just spoon feed it. You had previously asked for me to educate you, and just giving this information to you might not be the best education. Do you want answers or do you want to understand?)

Okay, first, let's be clear about something. Yes or no. Does a QMS defined by the element-by-element approach suggest that a process approach is being applied?

(This is different from, the question of "Is a process approach being applied?")

This kind of response, which I see throughout this thread, is rather silly, is somewhat condescending as if there is one authority (e.g.: "I was hoping not to just spoon feed it."), and is essentially troll bait. It keeps this thread running around in little circles.

I will leave the thread open, but caution those of you who are getting emotional about 'the process approach' vs. 'the element-by-element approach' that your string is being pulled (aka your button is being pushed). This has to be one of the longest circular, and in general nonsensical, discussion threads I have ever seen.

From this point on: Participate at your own risk.

 

[DrM2u]

Marc, please don't blow the wistle and spoil the fun! It's free entertainment for me ...

 

[ISO 9001 Guy]

I want answers. Don't try to educate me. I already understand what ISO wants. I want to know what YOU would accept as evidence the client organization is applying the process approach. For the last time, what objective evidence you would find acceptable?

Based on finding how you described your view of the element-to-element approach in another thread, no.

For the last time? Okay, Jennifer. Sheesh! Objective evidence of the process approach?

Proper definition of the QMS processes is a good start. Documentation that actually reflects QMS processes is good evidence of the process approach. Clearly element-by-element procedures do NOT serve as evidence of the process approach, do they? Element-by-element procedures are evidence that the process approach has not been applied at the system level.

It's easy to find evidence of application of the process approach within any real process or activity. Couldn't a Training Record be evidence of a process approach? A Traveler or a Router? A (process-based) procedure? Meeting minutes? Process objectives/targets and measures? "Bob put that one over there instead of over here." Couldn't all of these serve as evidence of controls appropriate to the process approach?

 

[Jen Kirley]

Finally. Thank you. I'm done.

 

[ISO 9001 Guy]

Given your demonstrated inability to provide clear definition of your point(s) and answer very direct and clear questions, I believe an attempt by you to "promote" the process approach would not end well.

The difference between the two questions is relevant to answering the question. A company can apply process approach principles--thus applying the process approach in some sense--yet fail to apply the process approach at the system level (by defining it using an element by element approach).

 

[ISO 9001 Guy]

Finally. Thank you. I'm done.

You are most welcome. Sorry to cause more trouble than the response was worth.