PPAP and Interchangeability - Necessity to re-PPAP when making an Engineering Change

S

Stephen Whan

#1
As a relative newcomer to the Automotive world (my experience is mostly from Aerospace) I would like your opinions on the following topic.

It regards the necessity to re-PPAP when making an Engineering change to a finished product.

As background, my company (Tier 2) designs and manufactures a finished assembly that is subsequently sold to many different Tier 1 customers.

It is fairly straightforward for me to work out that if we make an Engineering change which affects the FFF of our finished product (and hence the part # on our customer print rolls a level) then a new PPAP submission is required. That's a no-brainer. :applause:

But what happens if the change is applied to a component at a level lower than the finished product and the interchangeability of the product is re-established before we get to the final assembly level i.e. there is no need to roll the part # of the finished product as supplied to our customer(s). :confused:

This type of change would effectively be 100% invisible or of no consequence to our customer(s) - does this still require a new PPAP submission to be supplied? :caution:

Before you all say "yes", consider the following 2 examples;

a) Engineering changes made, for example, for internal VA/VE purposes (cost reductions, etc) all fall into this category. If we engineer a cheaper way to make part of our product, but still maintain the integrity of the final item as supplied to our customers, declaring this to the customer (by re-PPAPing) would leave us wide open to them holding us to ransom by either demanding a piece (or perhaps all) of that cost save or refusing to accept the change. Hence our ability to engineer a more cost-effective product would be lost. :bonk:

b) If we have to re-PPAP for every change we make, regardless of its impact, then by the same token it should cascade all the way to the OEM. In other words, if a Tier 3 supplier makes a minor tweak to his product and he is forced to re-PPAP to his Tier 2 customer, then, following the rule, that Tier 2 customer will also be forced to re-PPAP his product to his Tier 1 customer, and that Tier 1 customer to his OEM. The ramifications of this are huge. Are we really saying that the OEMs should be buried in paperwork, because that's what would happen. :truce:

In the aerospace world, (where there is no PPAP) if the interchangeabilty (ICY) of a product has been re-established and there is no change to the part #, then no approval is necessary. If the change is such that ICY is re-restablished before the customer print is affected, then he does not need to know.

What say the masses? (Apologies for the long post)
 
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Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#2
If you look at the PPAP booklet there are 3 situations defined:
  • Customer notification, wher you must inform the customer and he decides if he wants PPAP
  • Submission to the customer, where you must supply PPAP
  • Situations where customer notification is not required
The changes that require PPAP are those to the design records which you agree need to be PPAP'd, corrections of discrepancies(obvious)

I think that the problem is who decides what is "of no consequence to our customer(s)".
In the past and still today in some industries the supplier claims that is of no interest to the customer the production process of the part, this in the automotive industry is not correct, the approval is for the production process as much as the part.
Given that you have to notify if:
components change that affect fit, form, function, performance and /or drability.-this you might regard as invisible to the customer- you must notify and he will decide if you need to PPAP.
But changes to component level drawings that do not affect the customer design records do not have to be notified if they affect fit, form, function, performance and /or drability.

These conditions should be decided as part of contract review (according to the booklet).
So as you see the answer is yes and no or maybe.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#3
Howard Atkins said:
These conditions should be decided as part of contract review (according to the booklet).
So as you see the answer is yes and no or maybe.
As part of the yes/no/maybe scenario, I agree the minimum contact is with the next link in the supply chain.

To minimize the potential for grief, ensure you give all the information necessary to show the next link the change does not affect Form, Fit, or Function of the assembly. It is especially important (as an aerospace guy, you know about Configuration Management) to show the interchangeability of user-accessible components of the assembly.

An example I frequently use (to carry your premise of saving on assembly cost) is switching from Phillips Head fasteners to Torx drive or square drive fasteners for more efficient assembly. (Form and Fit of thread profile and length are the same, fastener Function remains - service personnel may need notice to add Torx driver to kit, but can replace with current stock of Phillips head)
 
S

Stephen Whan

#4
Thanks for the come backs guys.

I actually relooked at my PPAP manual this morning (third edition, Aug 2000 printing) and table I.3.3 on page 14 completely answers my question.

And I quote:

"Customer notification and submission is not required .... for changes to component level drawings, manufactured internally or manufactured by sub-contractors, that do not impact the design record for the product supplied to the customer."

So, as long as the FFF of our finished assembly is not affected, then there will be no change to the design record, and hence no re-PPAP will be required.

:thanks: :ca:
 
S

Stephen Whan

#5
Hmm, as always seems to be the case, for every rule there is a equal opposing rule.

It seems this definition as given by the AIAG is not quite 100% enforcable, especially when there are other documents and agreements floating around that contradict it.

Please let me rephrase my original query:

Up to now my company has only considered two possible routes when it comes to proper control and authorization of engineering change (remember we create and control our customer's drawing of our product for him)

1. Before making a change, we ask the customer his permission, get an ECN from him when he agrees, make the change, PPAP it to him and then ship the modified product. If no ECN is forthcoming then no change is made.

2. Ask/tell the customer nothing and make the change on our own without his knowledge. (When no FFF or interchangeability issues exist)

This is starting to cause issues as we are having situations arise more and more where we have changes to make that do not affect the customer's design record, do not affect his FFF or interchangeability of the product but still Quality wants to PPAP. i.e. We do not need nor get an ECN, the customer does not change his part number, does not know about the change until after it is made and then is asked to accept it.

How can this be handled? Is this not dangerous because of the potential for the customer to refuse to accept the PPAP and therefore we cannot ship the new product. But we have already made the change so the old product is not available either. Therefore we cannot ship anything unless we undo the change back to the original configuration.

Can anyone offer some sanity to this one?
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#6
Stephen Whan said:
How can this be handled? Is this not dangerous because of the potential for the customer to refuse to accept the PPAP and therefore we cannot ship the new product. But we have already made the change so the old product is not available either. Therefore we cannot ship anything unless we undo the change back to the original configuration.

Can anyone offer some sanity to this one?
We're back to the original assertion regarding contractual obligations. If the purchase order (or other contract) states that PPAP is required in accordance with the AIAG method, you are within your rights to read the "Bible" to the customer with regard to when notification and/or PPAP submission is required. You are wise to be concerned about offering the customer an opportunity to reject something that he has no contractual right to reject. On the other hand, it may be best to just talk it over with the customer and ask for direction as to what's expected, and how it will be documented if the PPAP manual is not the controlling document.
 
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