PPAP Applicability - 10,000 Part Numbers - Control Plans for ALL part numbers?

#11
BATMAN -

It isn't so much having and managing 2 systems.

Certainly we intend to be certified to QS9000 and are currently certified to ISO9002. As I have previously stated, I may be in for a shock.

However, my understanding is that it is all in the scope of registration. So, while we have ONE documented quality system that will include procedures to cover performance to both standards... the issue is to what part of the business will the QS Standards apply. For us, the QS9000 scope will only include activities for automotive and automotive-related customers.

That is what the auditor is required to audit. The part of the business that is covered by QS9000. For example, if I have side-by-side facilities, one responsible for the automotive business and the other responsible for all other industries, that would be easy. Plant A is under the scope of QS9000 registration, Plant B is not. It is no different internally. The automotive parts of our business are under the scope of registration, the others are not.

We have a "Transportation Team" in the front office. They will be involved in the PPAP process and the myriad of other events governed by the QS Standards. However, why should my "Medical and Healthcare Team," my "Electronics Team," and my "General Industrial Team" have to face the scrutiny of a QS9000 audit? Because the auditor might raise an eyebrow? I don't think so. His job is to audit within the scope of registration. If other parts of my business are not within the scope, his OPINION on its impact on my business is none of his concern. It is an automotive standard and it will apply to all systems in our facility that fall under that scope. My Medical, Electronic, and General Industrial Business in NOT with that scope.

Keep in mind though, there will be parts of the QS system that will apply to things that go on everywhere here. For instance, automotive parts could run on any machine in the facility. Therefore, our Maintenance Program will not simply be relegated to machines that run automotive parts, but have to apply to all machines (also because such an endeavor will add value to the business as a whole).

As for having all of our parts and customers being governed by an QS9000 Quality System... there wouldn't be enough time in the day to perform PPAPs, feasibility studies, and all of the other paperwork and planning for the Department of Redundancy Department we all know and love as the "Automotive Group" and apply it to all of our business. We are talking tens of thousands of different custom parts for thousands of customers. We don't just make transmissions, dashboards, brakes... single or few product lines. Each new RFQ is another new product we are making for somebody.

I don't know if all of this rambling has done anything for you, but I tried. Quite frankly, I wouldn't even be discussing QS9000 if the "Auto Group" weren't MAKING us do it in order to keep existing business and possibly get new business with them.

What I find absolutely amazing is that, prior to the advent of QS9000, we supplied wonderful products to them. Now, our business is in jeopardy over what I believe to not only be a "Quality System" but an opportunity to generate revenue via Plexus, books and all kinds of crap from the AIAG that are required, charge-backs, EDI via THEIR systems and so on.

TPTB here believe it is all worth it.

ALM

ALM
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#12
JADA -

Here is something for you to ponder...

Though Delphi is ramming QS9000 down our throats... we do not supply anything directly to Delphi. We sell our product to a middle man who then stores it or marks it up and sells it to Delphi. That's correct - not a single product that we make for ultimate sale to them goes directly from us to Delphi. ALL of it goes through our direct customer.

Guess what? Delphi IS NOT requiring THEM to be QS9000 certified, but is only requiring the WE are certified.

Help me understand this. Anyone.

This is why QS9000 makes me nuts.

ALM
 
B

Batman

#13
I was just curious about the "two" systems. If it works for you (most important) and the auditor says it is OK, I understand. We have been QS9 registered for 2 years, but lately I have heard about some parts - old parts with new tooling, and new parts - that do not need PPAP since the customer is not automotive. I think this is trouble.

Suggestion for Bryon, who originally asked about Control Plan for 10,000 parts - Marc has said it, others have said it - process control should address machines or work centers, not parts. You probably don't have 10,000 machines. You could group parts into "families."
 
#14
Stupid or not - the middleman (middleperson?) does nothing to the product which is why no QS requirement. I'm not going to get into whether QS makes any sense - some does and much doesn't. But - that's not the issue here anyway. The issue is whether it's a customer requirement and whether your company wants automotive business.

I have no problem with separation of the business by scope. One former client did ISO9001 for the plant and QS9000 only onautomotive products. In large part they did not see value in PPAPs for every customer and such like that. Even the plant layout had 'designated' QS9000 areas where equipment used to produce automotive (and other) product was specifically marked. I didn't see it as a 'two systems' issue particularly. Most of the master systems were the same - nonconformance and corrective action and such.

The automotive industry (particularly Ford, GM and Chrysler) are like kids. Try to understand them and you will fail. Best you can do is live with them or 'move out'!
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#15
"Therefore the subcontractor PPAP requirements 4.2.4 are only for the
subcontractrs who fall under the above definition, likewise Subcontractor
development 4.6.2.1 is only for subcontractors who fall under the above definition." Jada.
Yes this means that anything that I buy as a QS company requires me to demand PPAP and pursue Subcontractor development.
There is no need for 2 systems. A control plan is just a collection of your work procedures which you produce anyway for non-automotive parts. You are also obliged by ISO to make quality plans. You define in your procedures that you produce a quality plan but dependent on your customer it is in a different format. I supply to Renault and they reguest "PPAP" in a different manner but as I have defined as requested by customer there is no problem. The VDA uses a different warrant here again no problem. Non auto suppliers usually get a dimensional report and a material certificate because that is what they request.
One system but different outputs depending on the customer requests.
 
L

Lassitude

#16
At LucasVerity the requirement is for a 'standard' PPAP from suppliers capable of same, however from a lot of european suppliers we get a dimensional report (the ISIR), material certs and such. Never a warrant as detailed by the QS folks.
 
Q

qsmso

#18
Dear all,
I did some search regarding PPAP for subcontractor and couldn't find exactly what I want to ask.
Here they are:-

1. In PPAP manual (3rd ed.), submission level. What is actaully mean for level 1 ? If we are required to submit only PSW and AAR, what about the rest? Make and keep in the company or just don't make anything until customer request?

2. For subcontractor that we require them to do PPAP, how to consider what level that should apply to them?

3. Can we create other level of PPAP submission? I mean level 6, 7, 8 and so on, in which we can create to match with each materia'sl characteristic.

4. One of our critical subcontractor is the tooling shop. They provide us a mold to cast alloy wheel for OEM. However, they don't have any system in place even ISO9000. So when request them to do PPAP, it becomes a hard time for both of us. Any suggestion for this situation, please?

Hope someone can help.

QSMSO
 
#19
Bryon,
IMHO, you will have to do PPAP for all parts that you supply to Big 3 and also to other Customers with whom we have contractually agreed. The requirement to do PPAP is generally included in the Supplier Quality Manual of most of the non-OEM companies.
Regarding PPAPing Sub-Contractor, I think only GM has specified it.

regards
 
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