PPAP for a Non-Automotive product

L

lk2012

#1
Hi folks,
I'm in dispute with my colleagues in our production plant about a PPAP submission.
We have received a PPAP request from a customer who supplies both Automotive and Non-Automotive end customers. The request is for a part that is not used in Automotive.
The plant have been sitting on the request for months and now they're saying they won't do it because it's not Automotive.
My stance is that they either should have said it straight away when they received the request or now do the PPAP (or at least produce as much documentation as possible).
What's your view on this situation?
Lil
 
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R

RLewing

#2
Well, Lil

Of course the plant should have told the situation as early as possible, but that is not your question, is it?

What to do ...you don't give all information...

It depends naturally on the contract or RFQ related to the part. If it does not tell that PPAP is a process included in the delivery, then your plant has right, and you can tell to the customer that you will do it for extra price (and time) if they want it. If it is promised that your company does PPAP, then (provided that the plant was told early to do that) your plant is at fault, and you need to save the reputation of your company as well as you can - don't you? Do you?

Whether the end customer type can be used as an defining parameter as such - I think it can't. But e.g. our company does not deliver to automotive customers, but our two most advanced customers require PPAP from us. But is is a clearly stated requirement.
 
L

lk2012

#3
A very good answer. Do you work in Sales by chance? :)
If I put myself in the customer's shoes, I'd be very disappointed if I requested documentation in January and the supplier did nothing uintil April only to tell me they won't do it. If nothing else, it appears extremely unprofessional. I'd be considering dropping a supplier like this. If they take 4 months to decide if they kindly respond to me, how many years will they take to design a new product?
So the question now is: how to maintain the company reputation.
I believe that if our plant tried to meet them halfway, let's say they could only produce half the documentation the customer asked for (and 4 months late), at least we'd have something. Saying plain 'no we won't do it' just doesn't cut it in my opinion.
I'm biased, of course, because I'd have to be the messenger (and boy do I get shot at) but I belive we should make some effort instead of just rejecting their request. That doesn't look like good business practice to me.
 
R

RLewing

#4
No, I am a solid Q Director
I would indeed try first with the "half answer".

Maybe you want also to try find an explanation why there was such misunderstanding. (Because it must be that somebody at the plant did not understand the situation.) How about opening an 8D-case (or whatever corrective action process you use?) Do you think your plant would be responsive to that?
 
L

lk2012

#5
The structure in our company is, alas, over-complicated. I actually never get to speak to the real people in the plants. I get stuff from the customer, that goes to Sales / Marketing / Admin people who then speak to the plants. I'm not allowed to talk to the right people directly.
I've suggested the 'halfway house' method to them and only got a rude answer back.
I think it's time for escalation.
and maybe speaking to some local job agencies too
 
R

RLewing

#6
Ah, so sad...

Our quality system says that anyone who observes a problem, may raise a Corrective Action Request (though it is advised that if you are not sure, you should talk to your boss before hitting someone with a CAR).

Talk with your boss and/or the (corporate) quality manager.

When you define the problem, then define the problem with facts, and not who caused or who is a problem.
(NOT: "Brian did not create a PPAP" but maybe "The documentation requested by the customer could not be produced in time.")

Neither should you offer an answer. But discuss the importance. You might be able to say that the result was (or almost was) reduction of customer satisfaction and risk of losing an order or a whole account (if that is a fact).
 
L

lk2012

#7
Thanks for the advice.
Our own local QMS says just that about the CARs, however, the corporate QMS is a different kettle of fish altogether. In fact, I've never seen it (and if I did, I wouldn't be able to read it, it's all in Japanese)
Corporate Q-Manager? Haha. My own boss hasn't met anyone like that yet.
The whole issue has now gone to the Account Manager for that particular customer.
I'm not cancelling the request on my tracker nor I'm going to talk to the customer until I get a clear answer from HQ.
Until then... :popcorn:
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#8
Thanks for the advice.
Our own local QMS says just that about the CARs, however, the corporate QMS is a different kettle of fish altogether. In fact, I've never seen it (and if I did, I wouldn't be able to read it, it's all in Japanese)
Corporate Q-Manager? Haha. My own boss hasn't met anyone like that yet.
The whole issue has now gone to the Account Manager for that particular customer.
I'm not cancelling the request on my tracker nor I'm going to talk to the customer until I get a clear answer from HQ.
Until then... :popcorn:
Lil, you did tell us if PPAP release was a request from the customer in rfq or contract.
A question for you: is your company certifed vs ISO TS? did you ever work at a PPAP with all their elements?
I mean that if you do not apply process flow , FMEA, Control plan, MSA, spc etc. and never did , it is very difficult for you. However, this could also be an issue for your customer given that it is not doing supplier development as ISO TS requires.
The key question is that this part is not automotive related as you said and the other is to undestand what the contract or rfq states and your company signed off. However get in touch with supplier manager of you customer to undestand well in partnership and solve the question without overreacting.
Pls, give us more details.:bigwave:
 
L

lk2012

#9
Lil, you did tell us if PPAP release was a request from the customer in rfq or contract.
A question for you: is your company certifed vs ISO TS? did you ever work at a PPAP with all their elements?
I mean that if you do not apply process flow , FMEA, Control plan, MSA, spc etc. and never did , it is very difficult for you. However, this could also be an issue for your customer given that it is not doing supplier development as ISO TS requires.
The key question is that this part is not automotive related as you said and the other is to undestand what the contract or rfq states and your company signed off. However get in touch with supplier manager of you customer to undestand well in partnership and solve the question without overreacting.
Pls, give us more details.:bigwave:
As I said in one of my previous posts, it's now gone to top level. I don't believe that could be classed as 'overreacting'. The whole matter is now with the Account Manager (the person who directly deals with the customer and was responsible for the RFQ and agreements).
Indeed, our company is fully TS certified and I'm a lead auditor. However, my powers within the company are limited to the scope of what we do here in our UK office. What the HQ decides to do with the information / requests we send them is their own responsiblity and we have no say in that, unfortunately.:deadhorse:
All I was pointing at in the very beginning is that customer satisfaction and communication is one of the key factors in any business (automotive or non-automotive, TS or corneshop) and the plant team haven't done our business any favours sitting on a customer request and then saying no 3 months later.
 
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