PPAP for very Low Volume Suppliers and 'Job Shops'

[mustafa siddiqui]

Re: PPAP for very low volumes - Suppliers and 'Job Shops'

We ar edesign responsible for the engine so we will provide data on all the special charecteristics from our perspective and only a few of the customers SPC.For anything inside the engine (subsystem or componant) comming from either inhouse or from external supplier will have a capability based on the special characteristic identified. My question was regarding the accuracy of such a capability spanning over 24 months. Is the capability reliable?

For say, at engine level; we have a bolt joint being critical, now when I measure the torque as of May 11th 2008, and the 30th piece on May11th 2010 will there be accuracy in the predictability?
Or to check the accuracy do I have to keep doing a MSE on the Gauges involved in gathering the capability?
The reason I am asking is the liniarity and bias of the gages comming into play for a span of 2 years.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: PPAP for very low volumes - Suppliers and 'Job Shops'

We ar edesign responsible for the engine so we will provide data on all the special charecteristics from our perspective and only a few of the customers SPC.For anything inside the engine (subsystem or componant) comming from either inhouse or from external supplier will have a capability based on the special characteristic identified. My question was regarding the accuracy of such a capability spanning over 24 months. Is the capability reliable?

For say, at engine level; we have a bolt joint being critical, now when I measure the torque as of May 11th 2008, and the 30th piece on May11th 2010 will there be accuracy in the predictability?
Or to check the accuracy do I have to keep doing a MSE on the Gauges involved in gathering the capability?
The reason I am asking is the liniarity and bias of the gages comming into play for a span of 2 years.

There is no way to develop a rational capability study given the rate of data accumulation you've described. That's why I suggested that you talk to your customer about the requirements.

 

[mproszkow]

Re: PPAP for very low volumes - Suppliers and 'Job Shops'

There is no way to develop a rational capability study given the rate of data accumulation you've described. That's why I suggested that you talk to your customer about the requirements.

I am in a somewhat similar situation. We basically take a customer's existing part (or blueprint) and reverse engineer it. Typically, we make maybe 100-500 of a particular custom part and never see another order for it - we typically aren't making prototypes, just custom, limited-order parts.

Today we're quoting a job for a customer who on the RFQ noted a "PPAP is required". We are not an automotive supplier in the traditional sense - we may supply Ford for example with an order of 100 of some widget for a special SVT project or something, but never to an assembly plant or even to a tier supplier. In my previous jobs as a QE, I've had plenty of experience putting together PPAPs (or equivalent) for the OEMs. In this case, the customer is also non-automotive, and has told me that we will 'work together' on what they expect out of us for a PPAP.

Given the custom nature of each job, and the fact that we are not an automotive supplier, we don't have unique control plans of PFMEAs or even process flows or inspection instructions.

It will be interesting to see what we end up agreeing upon. What drove this conversation is that as part of the RFQ, they wanted to know how much we would charge for the PPAP. That in itself was new to me - I've always been used to a PPAP simply being a requirement, built into the part cost and not really separated!

 

[mustafa siddiqui]

Re: PPAP for very low volumes - Suppliers and 'Job Shops'

Our suppliers have charged us upto 9000 UK Pound for submitting a PPAP in Europe.

 

[Brizilla]

Re: PPAP for very low volumes - Suppliers and 'Job Shops'

Our suppliers have charged us upto 9000 UK Pound for submitting a PPAP in Europe.

Speaking of which, we are a job shop machine shop in the specialty metals industry. We do a lot of hydraulic cylinders and such. We have only one Aerospace custome, although it's a large one. We are tier 2. We are in the process of becoming AS9100 certified and one of our hydraulic customers is requesting a PPAP. We've gone through recent training and this will be our first one. The question is: How much do we charge for this? It's going to take dozens of hours to stumble our way through it, but it will still take a while even when we know what we are doing.

We have turned down all requests in the past for PPAP's but we know we'll be doing them in the future, so we thought this would be a good trial.

Sales Manager wants to know how much to charge?

Any ideas out there on the subject?

 

[Stijloor]

Re: PPAP for very low volumes - Suppliers and 'Job Shops'

Speaking of which, we are a job shop machine shop in the specialty metals industry. We do a lot of hydraulic cylinders and such. We have only one Aerospace custome, although it's a large one. We are tier 2. We are in the process of becoming AS9100 certified and one of our hydraulic customers is requesting a PPAP. We've gone through recent training and this will be our first one. The question is: How much do we charge for this? It's going to take dozens of hours to stumble our way through it, but it will still take a while even when we know what we are doing.

We have turned down all requests in the past for PPAP's but we know we'll be doing them in the future, so we thought this would be a good trial.

Sales Manager wants to know how much to charge?

Any ideas out there on the subject?

Look at this thread.

Stijloor.

 

[bobdoering]

Re: PPAP for very low volumes - Suppliers and 'Job Shops'

Doing PPAPs is a good thing - one of the best things that Automotive has over medical. Without a PPAP to establish a baseline, your customer will reject a part for a funny smell, taste, sheen, tool mark, etc. - not called out on the print. With a signed PPAP, you can at least ask them where in the control plan was it agreed to inspect for taste or smell? (exaggerated to make an obvious point) It is a decent tool to get on the same page before things get going in earnest.

BUT, always charge for a PPAP. Otherwise, knucklehead customers will send you 5 changes in 5 weeks for the same part and want level 3 PPAP for each. It is too much overhead to start prepping a PPAP every time the customer has a lucid moment. Charge to stem abuse, and to keep your costs in line. You should get a PPAP purchase order if they want a PPAP for any reason.

 

[Mark Paul]

Re: PPAP for very low volumes - Suppliers and 'Job Shops'

How much should one Charge for a PPAP?
Can we do a poll on that?

 

[bobdoering]

Re: PPAP for very low volumes - Suppliers and 'Job Shops'

What is the cost? Cost of the parts (plus small lot charge, if necessary), cost of the testing and cost of the overhead to prepare. If you do not add profit, (except for part price) it is more than fair. Be prepared to take the hit it the PPAP fails from your mistake. But, charge each time (unless you feel generous) there is a contract change - but for whatever costs are incurred. A flat rate may not be a good idea.

 

[smryan]

Re: PPAP for very low volumes - Suppliers and 'Job Shops'

Its an old thread, but it works for me.

So... I work for one of those "job shops". We often collaborate with the customer on the design spec - we make capacitors, they stick them into things.

Our small caps get ordered and produced in terms of thousands at a time.

Our large caps are another story - the order can be for 1 or 2 or 10. Often it is some experimental design the customer is toying with. If it is considered a "prototype" is it their prototype, or ours? We make it the first time as if it were the only time. Sometimes it is, and sometimes we get to tweak the specs or process and do it again. Sometimes they might order up to 40 at a time.

One of our new customers is using our caps in engines - and in the interest of future automotive relationships and the growing interest in alternative energy transportation, we are looking at getting TS certified. (we are already ISO) Many of my questions are "how much of this applies to us" in nature. I'm currently here reading up on PPAP and APQP trying to figure out what it is we need to do. I have a headache. Do I have a specific question?

Well... I guess it would be "How much detail can they (auditors I suppose) expect a company this size to go into?"

Thanks.