PPAP including FAI Parts - Customer is requiring 5000 measurements

M

Mr.Happy

#1
Hello pro’s,

I have the following situation:
I work in a machine shop as a QAM and we deliver part to the automotive (tier 2 supplier).
One of our customers gave us new parts that needed PPAP including FAI parts. The parts are made from high pressure aluminum castings.
And now my problem. One of the parts is with 50 pieces on the die plate, and our customer wants us to measure each plate position (nest number) at least 5 times. There are about 20 dimensions per part so that means 50*5*20=5000 measurements. And all of them must be written down on customer dimension reports.
I told our customer that this is too much work and in this way we are doing their SPC.
I suggested that they should do an SPC over the castings (50 nest numbers) and give us 4 nest numbers that vary the most so that instead of 50*5*20=5000 measurements we only have to do 4*5*20=400 measurements (still a lot of work)
According to our customer is this not acceptable and will not be okay with their end customer (GM).

Please give advice.

Thanks a lot in advance.
Mr. Happy :)mg: not so happy at the time)
 
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S

Sturmkind

#2
Re: PPAP including FAI parts

Mr. <Not So> Happy;

I have not supplied to GME but to GMNAO for many years with Tier 1 suppliers with 6 of those years in Safety Restraints (air bags and seat belts). I did work with GME on the Malibu vehicle launch 2 years ago and they did not seem unreasonable at all.

Your suggestion not only makes sense but I am doubtful that all 20 dimensions are critical or Key Characteristics. More likely 3-7 are crucial.

I have successfully convinced GMNAO Design Release, Eng. General Managers, and SQEs of exactly the approach you have tabled. Sometimes folks who are unsure of their product or process initially require extraordinary studies and can be pursuaded with logic and sampling examples from my favorite authors Grant & Leavenworth to align themselves with your practical suggestion.

Best of luck!

P.S. Asking for a sample size of 5 or 5 iterations generally indicates that there is 'in the box' thinking involved. The reason for 5 was only to ease SPC calculations before the advent of cheap and ready calculators. A subgroup of 3 will yield a standard deviation estimate and 2 subgroups of 3 = 6 which makes more sense.

Perhaps they could be led to a an explorative study with reduced data.......
 
Last edited by a moderator:
T

True Position

#4
They're paying for the PPAP costs, right?
Probably agreed built into the purchasing package, if the documentation says 5 layouts per cavity then it's pretty much stuck, 5000 dimensions and all. You'll need to talk to your buyer and find out what they agreed to.
 
M

Mr.Happy

#5
They're paying for the PPAP costs, right?
Hello Duke,

I asked Sales, but there ware no agreements about paying for PPAP in this case. They started this project before I took this job.
Any idea what is an reasonable price for PPAP, I used to charge 750 EURO'S for standard PPAP, but that was at my former job.

Cheers,

Mr.Happy
:read:
 
T

True Position

#6
Hello Duke,

I asked Sales, but there ware no agreements about paying for PPAP in this case. They started this project before I took this job.
Any idea what is an reasonable price for PPAP, I used to charge 750 EURO'S for standard PPAP, but that was at my former job.

Cheers,

Mr.Happy
:read:
It's almost impossible to come up with a standard cost since they vary so widely in difficulty (as you're seeing now).
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#7
Hello Duke,

I asked Sales, but there ware no agreements about paying for PPAP in this case. They started this project before I took this job.
Any idea what is an reasonable price for PPAP, I used to charge 750 EURO'S for standard PPAP, but that was at my former job.

Cheers,

Mr.Happy
:read:
If you're doing automotive work on a regular basis, there should be no up-charge for PPAP--it should be built in to the quoted price. What you can and should itemize, however, are costs of things like special fixtures, performance testing and unreasonable layout requirements.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#8
First the sermon:
The situation you describe might have been avoided if your organization had a cross-functional Contract Review team which would examine the niggledy piggledy points such as this BEFORE accepting the contract. Typically, such teams contain marketing/sales, engineering, quality, purchasing, manufacturing members who can look at each contract for the costs and "sticking points" which could increase cost or delay delivery, thus narrowing the profit margin.

Solution at this point in the game:

  1. Time one complete inspection of all PPAP points.
  2. Charge this time at prevailing rate against customer or in-house profit, whichever pertains or can be negotiated at this point.
  3. File this episode under "Lessons Learned"
 
T

TShepherd

#9
Wes speaks the truth.

Many of the people that do the quote process don't take quality into consideration and then you get into corner becuse you need a gage or an exceptional layout or whatever in order to ship parts and get paid.



Example: Small casting plant (Tier 4), trying to make a component for the Cadillac CTS convertable top. The component looked simple enough, however there was a small curvature to the part - that if not perfectly correct would make the top go "boing, boing, boing" as the top went up or down.

The tier 1 customer (GM - Ohio) was demanding that the component be measured using fixtured Indicator gages to confirm conformance - (Cost approx. 80k USD) A review of the print did show 13 Fit & Fuction KPC's (Key Product Characteristics) which automatically requires measurement and which should have been discussed in the Quote Process (in-house) to ensure that it was covered in the cost structure.

The Tier 1 will expect you to know this.

Alas: it was too late and the supplier ended up eating most of that cost.

A rough lesson.:(
 
A

asjahmed

#10
Mr. (Un)Happy,

Try to convince your customer to accept attribute data for most of those 20 or so characteristics, and use variable data for the three or four KPCs. You'll still have to report the attribute readings as Pass or Fail in the dimension report form, but you'll cut down your work considerably.
 
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