PPAP Level 3 Process Submission

B

blackanddom

#1
I am submitting my first process PPAP and am a little over my head.
I have the list of PPAP part submission requirements but it is a little confusing to me.

Part 7, initial process studies. If we are producing the same part on a new machine(not new process), how many samples should we be testing? Im trying to get 30 samples for specialized characteristics (length, OD, ID, etc).
Do I need to submit cpK results for these 30 pieces? is 30 enough? (we only make 150 at a time).
Can I just submit dimensional results since this is not a new process, just a new machine to run the same process? I was hired in for my expertise in quality management, and from working in another industry (plastics) I am failing to meet the bar in short notice on PPAP specifications.

My studies indicate I need APQP planning and checklists, design record, process FMEA, flow diagrams, control plans, gage R&R and dimensional analysis to go with my part submission warrant. Do I also need to include cpK studies? My predecessor seemingly has sent only cover letter, dimensional analysis, design specs, control plan and FMEA with the PSW. I find his highly inadequate but am getting no upper management support.


Thanks for your help

Sincerely,

Way over his head.....
 
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Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#2
The question isn't necessarily what your predecessor did, but rather what your customer expects to see. If you're dealing with an automotive customer the general default is level 3, and all of the relevant elements should be present in your PPAP if that's the case. What's actually relevant is for the customer to decide in most cases. Sometimes the strategy of sending what was approved in the past can be OK, but you need to be concerned about having evidence of customer assent to omitting elements that might be considered necessary.

In my own experience, I've found that it's almost always best to be sure of what the customer expects to see. As far as omission of default elements is concerned, it's best to ask for permission rather than forgiveness.
 
B

blackanddom

#3
I went ahead and sent a list to the customer on amount of samples to test for characteristics and amount of samples to be tested for SPC and capability testing.

My other question that I have come up with is: if we have a two part process- bulk production, then cutting of the bulk to certain sizes, and we are introducing a new machine for the bulk production process, do we need to test characteristics like squareness and length that occur in the latter process if those have not changed?
or is this, again, up to the customer?

thanks for your help. I will be in here VERY regularly, as noted above, I am quite over my head with APQP/PPAP. Quality testing after production approval is my strong suit- but you're only as strong as your weaknesses!
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#4
I went ahead and sent a list to the customer on amount of samples to test for characteristics and amount of samples to be tested for SPC and capability testing.

My other question that I have come up with is: if we have a two part process- bulk production, then cutting of the bulk to certain sizes, and we are introducing a new machine for the bulk production process, do we need to test characteristics like squareness and length that occur in the latter process if those have not changed?
or is this, again, up to the customer?
Presumably your control plan addresses the things that are verified in each operation. You shouldn't necessarily be doing redundant inspection unless there's a good reason for it. If there's no reason to think that anything from the upstream operation will change in the present operation, there's no reason to be concerned about it. It's a judgment call on your part.

thanks for your help. I will be in here VERY regularly, as noted above, I am quite over my head with APQP/PPAP. Quality testing after production approval is my strong suit- but you're only as strong as your weaknesses!
Glad to help. :bigwave:
 

Englishman Abroad

Involved In Discussions
#5
Jim is correct, in continuous production you should not need to recheck what has been already controlled.

However a PPAP is for a WHOLE Manufacturing process, for your final part shipped to the Customer. A PPAP is therefore specific to the manufacturing site, machinery, (machinery location, CNC program, etc), tooling, Measurement Equipment and process flow.

The PPAP attests that the Whole Manufacturing process meets the Customer's requirements for the product, and also production capacity.

If you change any part of this process (in your note you mentioned a new machine for the first step of the process), then you need to do a new PPAP of the finished part as shipped to your Customer. In theory the Customer can ask you to submit all the required documentation, even if you change the smallest thing in the Manufacturing process, in practice "unaffected" items are often not required.

NB; It is the Customer's representative (Normally the Supplier Quality Engineer) who can decide what is and what is not required.

Hence try to keep the Customer SQE happy, and ask them if you are not sure..
 
T

TShepherd

#6
Morning,

Let's back up just a minute and get some more information.

Was this new Machine in your current process at your companies decision level or was this in response to a customer request?

Is this an automotive process stream or something other than automotive.

Speaking from an automotive standpoint...

If your company decided to upgrade the machine and the process was previously PPAP'd - most companies have a "Change Request Process" in place to to deal with this situation and will communicate to you the exact requirements to continue running product and sometimes require that the entire process be evaluated (PPAP'd) and sometimes just the process change (a new machine in this case).

Never make a change in the process and then expect the customer to be ok with it - if they have not been notified prior to the change taking place and been involved in what the unexpected outcomes could be.

Never make a change in the process without notifiying your customer and getting approval and requirements before making the change.

If this change in the process was at your customers request - their Quality Representative should be giving you the requirements (to include data set sizes for analysis - (Initial process studies).

In some cases your customers Quality representative may be a little unsure of themself and default to Level III to CTA - sounds a little more like it should be a level II or Level 4.

Bottom line - get the customer Quality rep to define the requirements and do that - even if it may seem unreasonable.

Tom:2cents:
 
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