PPAP - No Critical Characteristics on Print

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Q

qualitytrec

#2
What level PPAP are you required to submit? And is your customer asking for Capability?

Mark
 
B

Bill Ryan - 2007

#3
1) You can beg your customer to define a couple (but WHY??)
2) You define "Critical Characteristics" internally (example - if a feature is maintained you are sure that some/most other features are also "acceptable"
3) You submit without any "Critical Characteristics" defined

The majority of our part drawings have no "CCs" called out.
 
Q

QualityJedi

#4
Ask your customer to submit a preliminary Part Submission Warrant. If there is no critical charastics defined then you don't have to worry. It may just be a level 1 PPAP. Always get a warrant first.
 
B

Bill Ryan - 2007

#5
QualityJedi said:
Ask your customer to submit a preliminary Part Submission Warrant. If there is no critical charastics defined then you don't have to worry. It may just be a level 1 PPAP. Always get a warrant first.
You lost me there.
Where on the Warrant do critical characteristics get mentioned :confused: .
What is a "preliminary" Part Submission Warrant from my customer :confused: (by any chance do you mean a PPAP checklist?)
 
J

Jim Howe

#6
1killercls said:
What the heck do ya do??? :bonk:
At my location we define, in our engineering standards and procedures, what are CTQ's, such as Line Bores and Boss Spacings. If the CTQ is not defined in our standards, then the engineer must identify it on the drawing. If I were faced with your situation I would look for attributes that would affect function and use them as the CTQ's.
:2cents:
 
Q

qualitytrec

#7
QualityJedi said:
Ask your customer to submit a preliminary Part Submission Warrant. If there is no critical charastics defined then you don't have to worry. It may just be a level 1 PPAP. Always get a warrant first.
Except when I worked at Intier Automotive I have always been the one to submit the warrant (as part of the PPAP). This is the way our customers want it and they get what they want.

As for the original question. Ask your customer what level PPAP is required if you did not do this in contract review (where it should have been done). This will put you on the right trail. Then open your PPAP reference manual and away you go. If there are no CCs then you likely do not have to produce capability on any. If you ask your customer about the CCs they will do one of a few things
:bonk: der, what do you mean
:eek: Golly I forgot, thanks
:naughty: Assign some random feature for no apparent reason
or
:D say do not worry about it we do not need them.

They could ask for capability on process parameters or something else also.
Ask your customer what they need.
Mark
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#8
I would like to make some order in this question, forgive me if I misinterpet.
The original question was: "what to do if there are no critical characteristics"

In general the answer is nothing, it is not a problem to anyone.
If there are CC then you have to perform capability studies, whether you submit them is dependent on the level, not whether you do them.
If there are no CC's then you don't have to perform capability studies.
You might want to do them for yourself of to validate a process etc. but the PPAP handbook does not require them.
If the customer requires capability studies that are not for CC's then this is a question to be discussed.

In any case do not invent any thing.
I think that the most constant advice in regards to PPAP is to ask the customer.
If you and the recipient of the PPAP are in tune every thing goes easier.
I hope this has helped.
 
S

s-bell

#9
Howard Atkins said:
I would like to make some order in this question, forgive me if I misinterpet.
The original question was: "what to do if there are no critical characteristics"

In general the answer is nothing, it is not a problem to anyone.
If there are CC then you have to perform capability studies, whether you submit them is dependent on the level, not whether you do them.
If there are no CC's then you don't have to perform capability studies.
You might want to do them for yourself of to validate a process etc. but the PPAP handbook does not require them.
If the customer requires capability studies that are not for CC's then this is a question to be discussed.

In any case do not invent any thing.
I think that the most constant advice in regards to PPAP is to ask the customer.
If you and the recipient of the PPAP are in tune every thing goes easier.
I hope this has helped.
I agree completely with this approach :agree1: , the customer may not have put CC's on a drawing because the part does not have any critical features. One important issue to consider though is that if the drawing however has the inverted Delta (Signifying Safety Critical) or equivalent on it, but no CC's defined, I would talk immediately to my customer as a safety critical or similar product usually has key features that require control. If these are omitted I would be a little concerned that I may be hit with a late requirement from the customer that was initially missed but has an effect on PPAP dates.

If this is not the case, as Howard correctly states if you wish to perform internal capability studies then you are at liberty to do so for your own gratification and confidence in your processes. Remember if you perform these yourselves it is not compulsary to be part of the PPAP package but obviously you may review with your customer if you feel the need.
 
J

Jim Howe

#10
s-bell said:
I agree completely with this approach :agree1: , the customer may not have put CC's on a drawing because the part does not have any critical features. One important issue to consider though is that if the drawing however has the inverted Delta (Signifying Safety Critical) or equivalent on it, but no CC's defined, I would talk immediately to my customer as a safety critical or similar product usually has key features that require control. If these are omitted I would be a little concerned that I may be hit with a late requirement from the customer that was initially missed but has an effect on PPAP dates.

If this is not the case, as Howard correctly states if you wish to perform internal capability studies then you are at liberty to do so for your own gratification and confidence in your processes. Remember if you perform these yourselves it is not compulsary to be part of the PPAP package but obviously you may review with your customer if you feel the need.
I agree with what you are stating :agree1: But I am a bit confused? :confused: What is a critical characteristic? Is it not a characteristic that affects form, fit or function? If it is not defined on the drawing should it have been? Does anyone have a good definition?
 
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