PPAP Request from our Customer for an Assembly we Purchase

5

56flh

#1
I have received a PPAP request from one of our customers for an assembly that we purchase as a complete unit from another vendor. It is an item that we receive from the vendor, package in a box with our logo and then sell as an item in our catalog. Without having design/production control, how does a person complete a PPAP? :confused: I have no idea of our vendor's process flow or FMEA, control plan etc. Does this fall under the Black Box definition?
 
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Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#2
I have received a PPAP request from one of our customers for an assembly that we purchase as a complete unit from another vendor. It is an item that we receive from the vendor, package in a box with our logo and then sell as an item in our catalog. Without having design/production control, how does a person complete a PPAP? :confused: I have no idea of our vendor's process flow or FMEA, control plan etc. Does this fall under the Black Box definition?
I doubt that it's a black box, but without knowing more, I couldn't venture a guess. What your PPAP submission should include depends on what the customer expects to see. Do they know that you don't manufacture the product? Was/is PPAP a part of the original purchase agreement?
 
5

56flh

#3
I doubt that it's a black box, but without knowing more, I couldn't venture a guess. What your PPAP submission should include depends on what the customer expects to see. Do they know that you don't manufacture the product? Was/is PPAP a part of the original purchase agreement?
Usually this customer asks for the Part Submission Warrant and Dimensional Results with all other aspects of the level 4 PPAP noted as "available at supplier on request". I hesitate to add the "available on request" note for an item we did not design and possess no design/print information. I am submitting this PPAP based on our catalog page for dimensional reference as it is all I have available and noted as a catalog item on the PSW.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#4
Usually this customer asks for the Part Submission Warrant and Dimensional Results with all other aspects of the level 4 PPAP noted as "available at supplier on request". I hesitate to add the "available on request" note for an item we did not design and possess no design/print information. I am submitting this PPAP based on our catalog page for dimensional reference as it is all I have available and noted as a catalog item on the PSW.
Does the customer know this item is not manufactured by your company? If they do, then I would talk to them and explain that PPAP (beyond a PSW) isn't appropriate for catalog items. If they don't know, you should tell them.
 
J

Jonazzz

#5
Why can't your supplier file a PPAP to you?

The only thing you have to do is intergrate it into your own quality system, and let the customer sign of your PSW to him.
If you can sign of the PSW towards your supplier, it's ok.

The responisble STA might come and visit you to audit the PPAP file from your supplier, but actually it is your suppliers' responsibility to give you a PPAP file.

If he's not willing to give you a complete 19 chapter file, you might want to ask them for the basics.
Process flowchart, control plan, dimensional results, IMDS,... The other documentation can be present at his site (level 3 PSW).

Hope this could help?
 

Manix

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#6
I agree with Jonazzz. Why can't the next tier simply supply the PPAP to you? I am in the same situation with many of our parts, we simply purchase an assembly, but that does not make it void from the process of verification and validation of both the part and the processes used to make, measure and deliver them to you. Someone makes it, why can't we validate that someone.

Of course I don't know your specific situation and I don't know from you post what level of information the customer is asking for, but strictly speaking if a PPAP is requested all the information should be available regardless of submission level.

I know too well though, the operational realities of this (I.e. financial restrictions often impose a burden on resource for compilation and submission of such information).
 
5

56flh

#7
Thanks to all who have responded. I'll have to check into a PPAP from my supplier, but the assembly comes from China so that may be non-existent.
 
J

Jonazzz

#8
Ah, China,

I have had some experiences with implementing PPAP documentation in China.
I can say to you that this was a real nightmare. :nope:

A lot of mails going out (documents, manuals, practical examples, changed documents with comments and notes,....), and comming in.
Each time, we replied to their questions, we got another reply with more questions to the answers that were given...

At the end, we decided to do it like this:

- Process flowchart (we just got them to describe in their own words how they made the product, with the knowledge we made build up during the process audit)
- Dimensional results (we did them ourselves, and communicated the changes needed to the product, products were changed in china, re-send and re-measured,...)
- Control Plan (we made that ourselves, based on the communciations that we had, and ofcourse on the process audit results we did in the production location).
- FMEA, we declared to the customer that he could see it in China (as we were certain that he would not make a trip to China to verify the FMEA for this product).
- Gage R&R, we conducted it ourseleves during the process audit in China.
- All other documents like sourcing decision, materials,...,and all other documents were an extract of the total assembly.

If your Chinese company never filed a PPAP submission before, and their core business is not automotive, consider doing things yourself, or take a two weeks Chinese trip to explain them everything into detail, and help them submitting all documents.

Nothing against LCC's to purchase parts from, but on QS's, in some cases, they have a long road to go....

I do not want to discourage you with my "bad" experience. I'm sure that a lot of other China suppliers can deliver the req. documents.

Just sharing my experiences...

Good luck. :bigwave:
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#9
Why can't your supplier file a PPAP to you?

The only thing you have to do is intergrate it into your own quality system, and let the customer sign of your PSW to him.
If you can sign of the PSW towards your supplier, it's ok.

The responisble STA might come and visit you to audit the PPAP file from your supplier, but actually it is your suppliers' responsibility to give you a PPAP file.

If he's not willing to give you a complete 19 chapter file, you might want to ask them for the basics.
Process flowchart, control plan, dimensional results, IMDS,... The other documentation can be present at his site (level 3 PSW).

Hope this could help?
There's a good chance that this is a customer blindly asking for something he doesn't know he doesn't need. If the contract with the supplier made no mention of PPAP requirements, the supplier would be within his rights to reopen the contract. No sense creating a lot of strife if just explaining the situation to the customer will suffice.
 

Manix

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#10
Thanks to all who have responded. I'll have to check into a PPAP from my supplier, but the assembly comes from China so that may be non-existent.
You might be surprised! Although there are many "bad" reports on quality from China, some established manufacturers could put many western orgnisations to shame on this.

I have experience of exactly your situation and although there is some work to be done, with a little effort on your part you could actually get the basics together to be able to formulate a perfectly reasonable PPAP.

If this is automotive I don't understand why a PPAP would not be required, but again I don't know your individual situation.
 
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