PPAP - who me? Convincing a customer to NOT request PPAP

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#11
Mr.1Putt said:
We have a supplier who simply refuses to submit a PPAP (they are TS registered).

The reason for no submission is proprietary (patented product). Claiming any DFMEA, Control Plan, PFMEA, raw material validation is proprietary and would violate their patent protection.

Has anyone encountered a similiar situation and what did you do? A better question is what would an auditor say, will they accept this? We are trying to get a customer waiver but I have a feeling we won't win that battle. OEM is BMW.

Help needed!

Thanks
It's not unusual, but PPAPs are submitted for patented products all the time. The way we've dealt with this in the past is to require the supplier to allow us to review the sensitive documents in the presence of their representatives (in our building, preferably), and then have them submit a warrant and whatever documentation they feel they can. If, however, you feel this is going to be an issue with your customer, you need to discuss it with them.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
M

Michaelsun

#12
fill in the blanks!

:magic: One might suspect that a level 4 (Part Submission Warrant only) would be acceptable. Since you can not have all the other documents you may have to either 1) document an audit of their documents (PFD, FMEAA, CP, etc) 2) have a letteer of compliance or 3) a level 2 with statistical data of the process / controls / relevant info.

I don't know if that would be acceptable or what the customer might think but there are some ideas. # 1 should support the requirements - but may not be practical. Comments?
 
Q

QualityPhD

#13
MR 1Putt:

A better question is what would an auditor say, will they accept this?
Ahem... the auditor would say...

We have a supplier who simply refuses to submit a PPAP (they are TS registered). Auditor says, "if you as the customer have requested PPAP for any product and NOT received NOR accepted the PPAP as verification of the supplier's ability to supply product in accordance with your requirements, why did you accept the product? If you issued a purchase order without reviewing the required PPAP information, the purchasing/production processes at your organization would require a more thorough analysis of 7.1"... and potentially some nonconformances...."

The reason for no submission is proprietary (patented product). Claiming any DFMEA, Control Plan, PFMEA, raw material validation is proprietary and would violate their patent protection. The auditor says, "organizations and individuals seek to protect products, servies and processes that are proprietary through the use of patents and confidentiality agreements. Suggesting the supplier consult with their patent counsel/legal advisor may alleviate their fears, however, in a situation where the customer requires PPAP... the organization shall determine the requirements specified by the customer, requirements differing are resoved and they have the ability to meet those requirements. Not just the ability to meet those requirements, they must adhere to customer requirements. The auditor says NONCONFORMING."

We are trying to get a customer waiver but I have a feeling we won't win that battle. Are you the customer that does not want to submit to the PPAP because of proprietary information or is your customer refusing to submit a PPAP to you???? The auditor is confused now..... and your profile says your a a QMS Auditor? Are you an internal auditor or a third party auditor?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#14
Sure, it is a difficult scenario, but you are required to meet your customer's requirements. If BMW requires a PPAP style document, then you either have to persuade your supplier to cooperate, or discuss with the customer what they would have you do.

There is no "judgement call" that an auditor can make in this situation. It is not within our scope of authority.
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#15
PPAP level 5 is an inspection of the PPAP documents at the suppliers plant.
This can be performed with a process audit.
It is accepted in Europe that FMEA does not have to be submitted because it is proprietary but inspection is always possible with a confidentiality statement.
Totally unacceptable the fact that he is not willing to submit. I would tell him that if he does not submit then you will inform his CB as this is a blatant non compliance with the standard
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
J Supplier not responding to PPAP request APQP and PPAP 5
J Part submission warrant for Level 1 PPAP APQP and PPAP 1
K Should APQP/PPAP has its own section in a QM? Quality Management System (QMS) Manuals 1
B Toyota PPAP Process - Three Questions APQP and PPAP 3
G Supplier delivered recent PPAP, should he deliver yearly layout inspection? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
F How to submit a PPAP when a subcontractor is the sole manufacturer IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
P PPAP samples retention time IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
K Updated MSA with the Annual PPAP validations APQP and PPAP 8
P Managing How PPAP Requirements are Communicated in the Manufacturing Process and to Suppliers APQP and PPAP 5
E Annual PPAP+ deviation request ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
K OEM specific requirements - PPAP was rejected by STA Customer and Company Specific Requirements 5
T PPAP for distributors? APQP and PPAP 1
A PPAP for Fire extinguisher APQP and PPAP 2
S PPAP Progress - Visual Status Board APQP and PPAP 0
C AS9145 Appendix D PPAP Approval Form APQP and PPAP 2
Pau Calvo PPAP customer requirements in the APQP APQP and PPAP 25
V 3 PQ lots mentioned as requirement in PPAP. Is this necessary? APQP and PPAP 2
B What is the role of Quality Engineer in APQP and PPAP APQP and PPAP 3
F How to submit PPAP without IMDS APQP and PPAP 10
GreatNate Excel PPAP Tracking templates or tool wanted APQP and PPAP 1
M Where can I find examples of PPAP? APQP and PPAP 6
R Process Specification - What is the name of this PPAP form? APQP and PPAP 15
I PPAP Assembly and Components Manufacturing and Related Processes 3
F PPAP Documentation Control APQP and PPAP 8
K PPAP Phases Vs PPAP Levels APQP and PPAP 2
R Plan to Volvo Cars for capacity verification in Phase 3 of PPAP Customer and Company Specific Requirements 3
G Job interview - So I have to do a presentation on PPAP APQP and PPAP 16
J AIAG PPAP: 2.2.11.3 Acceptance Criteria for Initial Study (page 9, 4th edition) APQP and PPAP 1
M Level 3 PPAP submission of intentional defective parts APQP and PPAP 4
L Reasons to submit a new PPAP or notify the customer APQP and PPAP 3
eule del ayre List of Level 3 PPAP requirements for automotive suppliers APQP and PPAP 20
A New Supplier implementation - PPAP vs APQP APQP and PPAP 9
E Nissan (Renault) PPAP Acronyms (DNote , KFD, IR) APQP and PPAP 2
N How to deal with catalog parts suppliers who refuse to submit PPAP documents? APQP and PPAP 0
N PPAP material certificate date IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
P Paint shop vs PPAP requirements IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
N How to resolve discrepancies in Level 3 PPAP supplier dimensional reports? APQP and PPAP 11
Sidney Vianna AS9100 News PPAP in the Aerospace Sector - What is it? AS9145 - Requirements for Advanced Product Quality Planning and Production Part Approval Process AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 10
D PPAP a Rebranded Purchased Product (we don't manufacture) IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 6
E Solder thermal profiles for PPAP - Automotive IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1
P Automotive Customer asking PPAP for catalogue parts IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 16
V PPAP documentation - Submission required in English APQP and PPAP 3
H Informational What is PPAP (Production Part Approval Process)? APQP and PPAP 26
J What level PPAP for 5 critical parts? APQP and PPAP 8
S PPAP Levels compared to Interim Class APQP and PPAP 1
E PPAP Workbook 4th APQP and PPAP 3
N Can you use parts from Run at Rate to use in your PPAP? APQP and PPAP 4
N Who shall manage PPAP process? APQP and PPAP 4
kedarg6500 APQP & PPAP for Process Industry - Concept for Waste to Energy Program APQP and PPAP 0
T PPAP differences between TS16949 and VDA APQP and PPAP 1

Similar threads

Top Bottom