PPAPs (How far down the tiers are we supposed to get PPAPs)?

Crimpshrine13

Involved In Discussions
#1
Perhaps someone can help me with this.

We're a tier 2 supplier, and we never had customer requirements to get PPAPs from our suppliers (material supplier and platers) in the past, but this discussion came up during the last IATF 16949 surveillance audit. Is it a mandatory requirement to get a PPAP from tier 3 and under suppliers or is it more based on customer requirements? We've always submitted our part samples with full layout, process capability study data, checking aid, PFMEA, control plan, GRR, salt spray report, steel mill certificates, and PV test report if required by a customer. Control plan and CQI-11 are obtained from our plater, and with material supplier, we kind of grandfathered their process since the material used is coming from Japan (which is the existing process). My question is, how far down the tiers are we supposed to do PPAPs?
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

optomist1

A Sea of Statistics
Trusted Information Resource
#2
Am I to assume your firm is IATF 16949 compliant? What do your customer specifications/drawings state? Are there CSRs, Customer Specific Requirements?
 

Crimpshrine13

Involved In Discussions
#3
Am I to assume your firm is 16949 compliant? What do your customer specifications/drawings state? Are there CSRs, Customer Specific Requirements?
We're IATF 16949 certified, and we do not have customer specific requirements from our customers stating that we need a PPAP from our suppliersm, but this was brought up in the discussion with auditor last month during the surveillance audit.
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#4
In my opinion, you can go down as far as you want requiring PPAP from Suppliers. You need to decide what is important to your organization to provide some type of assurance that the product meets your customer's requirements. Look at it as a risk opportunity for your organization.
 

Crimpshrine13

Involved In Discussions
#5
In my opinion, you can go down as far as you want requiring PPAP from Suppliers. You need to decide what is important to your organization to provide some type of assurance that the product meets your customer's requirements. Look at it as a risk opportunity for your organization.
So do you think that if we are good with the suppliers' processes to meet our customer expectations based on audits, process control, and product quality, we do not have to have official PPAPs from our suppliers or is it a mandatory requirement to get PPAPs from suppliers? I was thinking this was more of CSR issue and it was totally unexpected comment from the auditor.
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#6
So do you think that if we are good with the suppliers' processes to meet our customer expectations based on audits, process control, and product quality, we do not have to have official PPAPs from our suppliers or is it a mandatory requirement to get PPAPs from suppliers? I was thinking this was more of CSR issue and it was totally unexpected comment from the auditor.
Unless it is driven by your customer via CSR, or PO it would be up to your organization. I know when we have to submit PPAPs, we ask for a limited PPAP from our suppliers that furnish components used in our product. I look at it this way, any documentation that can support our PPAP that is submitted to our customer, I always like to have that documentation.
 

Crimpshrine13

Involved In Discussions
#7
Unless it is driven by your customer via CSR, or PO it would be up to your organization. I know when we have to submit PPAPs, we ask for a limited PPAP from our suppliers that furnish components used in our product. I look at it this way, any documentation that can support our PPAP that is submitted to our customer, I always like to have that documentation.
Thanks. That explains.
 

optomist1

A Sea of Statistics
Trusted Information Resource
#8
Echoooing Coury's input..."better to have and not need than need and not have...", especially given the granularity of todays business environment....performing due diligence has taken on a deeper meaning. In my opinion the extra effort is warranted...optomist1
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#9
The PPAP should be for the top-level assembly, but it should include the standard PPAP data for the components, such as dimensional, material and performance test data, where applicable. Dimensionals should be done by you, as opposed to using copies of suppliers' reports.
 

Crimpshrine13

Involved In Discussions
#10
The PPAP should be for the top-level assembly, but it should include the standard PPAP data for the components, such as dimensional, material and performance test data, where applicable. Dimensionals should be done by you, as opposed to using copies of suppliers' reports.
So in terms of this discussion, should we be getting official PPAP (to include PSW) from our plater and material supplier (steel coil)? We always do plate thickness measurement here which is included in the Dimensional Test Results, and I was thinking if I get Control Plan and CQI-11 from the plater along with salt spray test results (they have ISO 17025 certified lab), I thought this would be sufficient. And maybe the same for material supplier if we get Control Plan and hardness and tensile strength test results (which are included in mill certificates), we were thinking it would be enough documentation to support our PPAP to our customer unless our customer has specific requirement of sub supplier (tier 3) PPAP. Our customer assembles the part, not us. We make part of their assembly part and get the product plated (outsourced).
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
J When PPAPs are not a contractual requirement APQP and PPAP 9
J Distribution and PPAPs for products they do not manufacture APQP and PPAP 3
M What are Yellow and Green PPAPs for Daimler? APQP and PPAP 4
T Requirement for PPAPs from all Suppliers APQP and PPAP 6
G TS 16949 External Lab for Raw Material Certs for PPAPs IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 26
E Being asked to do PPAPs - I'm new to the APQP Process APQP and PPAP 12
V FORD Phased PPAPs Information APQP and PPAP 3
J Annual PPAPs - Keeping Up with Hundreds Of Customers And Hundreds Of Part Numbers APQP and PPAP 12
O Dimensional Results Requirements for PPAPs APQP and PPAP 6
Q Supplier PPAPs - Self Certified - First tier supplier to Ford APQP and PPAP 1
C How Many PPAPs? We currently submit 160+ PPAPs per year APQP and PPAP 6
Gabble Supplier delivery of same material to different manufacturing locations - PPAPs Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 2
T PPAPs for job shops that produce short run assemblies (i.e 100 to 10,000 units) APQP and PPAP 9
A What regulations must a distributor follow when submitting PPAPs? APQP and PPAP 1
A Interim PPAPs - Is this normal for GM, triplication of paperwork? APQP and PPAP 2
G 1st Articles / Initial Sample Submissions - Requirements for submitting PPAPs Other ISO and International Standards and European Regulations 5
T Electronic APQP and PPAPs - Seeking Recommendations Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 2
B FAR/Prime Contractor Flow-down Tool - AS9100 AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 3
P How far an operator can reach into a machine before it becomes an ergonomic problem CE Marking (Conformité Européene) / CB Scheme 5
D Where does "as far as possible" stop? FMEA - EN 14971 ISO 14971 - Medical Device Risk Management 29
K About ionizers - How far can we place a table top ionizer from the IC devices Manufacturing and Related Processes 1
Q Correction of records - FAR or DFAR? Various Other Specifications, Standards, and related Requirements 3
I First Time Implementing Document Control for ISO-9001 - how far back do you go? Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 15
R How far apart can you schedule separate areas or departments in your internal audit? Internal Auditing 4
I FAR Part 43 and Application to 17025 Accredited Cal Lab Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Standards and Requirements 2
I Is risk acceptability really needed if all risks must be reduced as far as possible? ISO 14971 - Medical Device Risk Management 6
J Definition Outsourcing - How Far Does it Go? Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 6
F Necessary trainings for FAR 145 certification Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Standards and Requirements 3
R FAR 145.205 - Maintenance Program Flow Down Requirements Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Standards and Requirements 3
Z Comparison between AS9100 and FAA 145 Repair-Station (CFR's, FAR's) Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Standards and Requirements 3
L Records Register is not maintained and is far from complete ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 14
H Active Parts with No FAI - How far back do you go? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
J Quality Escapes Procedure (requirement for FAR 21.137 (n)) needed Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 1
C Certification process for small consultancy practice far away from main cities ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 9
D FAA Drug Testing Requirements - FAR Part 145.211 (c)(1)(vi) Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Standards and Requirements 8
Q Registrars and Consulting - How far can a registrar go in consulting for a company? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
I far away Brain Teasers and Puzzles 8
ScottK How "far up" Maslow's Hierarchy are you? Career and Occupation Discussions 7
ScottK How far is it practical to take a Process FMEA? FMEA and Control Plans 14
A FAR Part 21/145 vs. EASA Part 21/145 EASA and JAA Aviation Standards and Requirements 5
Marc How far do you commute to work? Career and Occupation Discussions 58
ScottK Lessons Learned so far from my current ISO9001 adventure ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 23
K How far should we go to control Non-Conforming Material? Nonconformance and Corrective Action 7
Q Auditor Access to Records - How far an Auditor can Probe ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 19
C FAR Part 145.161(a)(4) - Summary of Employment AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 4
Marc Small Business Set Asides - FAR (Federal Acquisition Regulations) Subpart 19.5 Consultants and Consulting 2
R Component traceability in an assembly - Government contract - How far does it go? Various Other Specifications, Standards, and related Requirements 18
E How far to go into Special Characteristics (SC) Identification on Machines/Equipment IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1
H Process correlation matrix - Just how far "into the weeds" do I go? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 4
gard2372 FAR 145 AS9100 Gap Analysis - Any recommendations on where to start? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 18

Similar threads

Top Bottom