PPAPs (How far down the tiers are we supposed to get PPAPs)?

[Crimpshrine13]

Perhaps someone can help me with this.

We're a tier 2 supplier, and we never had customer requirements to get PPAPs from our suppliers (material supplier and platers) in the past, but this discussion came up during the last IATF 16949 surveillance audit. Is it a mandatory requirement to get a PPAP from tier 3 and under suppliers or is it more based on customer requirements? We've always submitted our part samples with full layout, process capability study data, checking aid, PFMEA, control plan, GRR, salt spray report, steel mill certificates, and PV test report if required by a customer. Control plan and CQI-11 are obtained from our plater, and with material supplier, we kind of grandfathered their process since the material used is coming from Japan (which is the existing process). My question is, how far down the tiers are we supposed to do PPAPs?

 

[optomist1]

Am I to assume your firm is IATF 16949 compliant? What do your customer specifications/drawings state? Are there CSRs, Customer Specific Requirements?

 

[Crimpshrine13]

Am I to assume your firm is 16949 compliant? What do your customer specifications/drawings state? Are there CSRs, Customer Specific Requirements?

We're IATF 16949 certified, and we do not have customer specific requirements from our customers stating that we need a PPAP from our suppliersm, but this was brought up in the discussion with auditor last month during the surveillance audit.

 

[Coury Ferguson]

In my opinion, you can go down as far as you want requiring PPAP from Suppliers. You need to decide what is important to your organization to provide some type of assurance that the product meets your customer's requirements. Look at it as a risk opportunity for your organization.

 

[Crimpshrine13]

In my opinion, you can go down as far as you want requiring PPAP from Suppliers. You need to decide what is important to your organization to provide some type of assurance that the product meets your customer's requirements. Look at it as a risk opportunity for your organization.

So do you think that if we are good with the suppliers' processes to meet our customer expectations based on audits, process control, and product quality, we do not have to have official PPAPs from our suppliers or is it a mandatory requirement to get PPAPs from suppliers? I was thinking this was more of CSR issue and it was totally unexpected comment from the auditor.

 

[Coury Ferguson]

So do you think that if we are good with the suppliers' processes to meet our customer expectations based on audits, process control, and product quality, we do not have to have official PPAPs from our suppliers or is it a mandatory requirement to get PPAPs from suppliers? I was thinking this was more of CSR issue and it was totally unexpected comment from the auditor.

Unless it is driven by your customer via CSR, or PO it would be up to your organization. I know when we have to submit PPAPs, we ask for a limited PPAP from our suppliers that furnish components used in our product. I look at it this way, any documentation that can support our PPAP that is submitted to our customer, I always like to have that documentation.

 

[Crimpshrine13]

Unless it is driven by your customer via CSR, or PO it would be up to your organization. I know when we have to submit PPAPs, we ask for a limited PPAP from our suppliers that furnish components used in our product. I look at it this way, any documentation that can support our PPAP that is submitted to our customer, I always like to have that documentation.

Thanks. That explains.

 

[optomist1]

Echoooing Coury's input..."better to have and not need than need and not have...", especially given the granularity of todays business environment....performing due diligence has taken on a deeper meaning. In my opinion the extra effort is warranted...optomist1

 

[Jim Wynne]

The PPAP should be for the top-level assembly, but it should include the standard PPAP data for the components, such as dimensional, material and performance test data, where applicable. Dimensionals should be done by you, as opposed to using copies of suppliers' reports.

 

[Crimpshrine13]

The PPAP should be for the top-level assembly, but it should include the standard PPAP data for the components, such as dimensional, material and performance test data, where applicable. Dimensionals should be done by you, as opposed to using copies of suppliers' reports.

So in terms of this discussion, should we be getting official PPAP (to include PSW) from our plater and material supplier (steel coil)? We always do plate thickness measurement here which is included in the Dimensional Test Results, and I was thinking if I get Control Plan and CQI-11 from the plater along with salt spray test results (they have ISO 17025 certified lab), I thought this would be sufficient. And maybe the same for material supplier if we get Control Plan and hardness and tensile strength test results (which are included in mill certificates), we were thinking it would be enough documentation to support our PPAP to our customer unless our customer has specific requirement of sub supplier (tier 3) PPAP. Our customer assembles the part, not us. We make part of their assembly part and get the product plated (outsourced).