PPAPs (How far down the tiers are we supposed to get PPAPs)?

[Jim Wynne]

So in terms of this discussion, should we be getting official PPAP (to include PSW) from our plater and material supplier (steel coil)? We always do plate thickness measurement here which is included in the Dimensional Test Results, and I was thinking if I get Control Plan and CQI-11 from the plater along with salt spray test results (they have ISO 17025 certified lab), I thought this would be sufficient. And maybe the same for material supplier if we get Control Plan and hardness and tensile strength test results (which are included in mill certificates), we were thinking it would be enough documentation to support our PPAP to our customer unless our customer has specific requirement of sub supplier (tier 3) PPAP. Our customer assembles the part, not us. We make part of their assembly part and get the product plated (outsourced).

There is no need to include PSWs from suppliers in your PPAP. If you require them, that's fine, but you don't need to include them unless the customer specifically asks for them. Your PPAP should include all the data needed to confirm that all of the drawing and specification requirements have been satisfied. There are basically six types of reports:

1. Dimensional
2. Material
3. Performance
4. Statistical
5. Appearance
6. MSA (measurement system analysis)

Not all of these reports will be required in every PPAP--it depends on the specifications. Nearly every PPAP will include dimensional and material reporting. Salt spray testing is a performance requirement. If there are special characteristics a statistical report will probably be required. Likewise appearance--no appearance requirements, no apprearance report. MSA should be included for measurement systems cited on the control plan.

You also don't need to include any of your supplier's process information such as FMEAs and control plans. For suppliers, just include the information needed to verify conformance to specifcations.

 

[Crimpshrine13]

There is no need to include PSWs from suppliers in your PPAP. If you require them, that's fine, but you don't need to include them unless the customer specifically asks for them. Your PPAP should include all the data needed to confirm that all of the drawing and specification requirements have been satisfied. There are basically six types of reports:

1. Dimensional
2. Material
3. Performance
4. Statistical
5. Appearance
6. MSA (measurement system analysis)

Not all of these reports will be required in every PPAP--it depends on the specifications. Nearly every PPAP will include dimensional and material reporting. Salt spray testing is a performance requirement. If there are special characteristics a statistical report will probably be required. Likewise appearance--no appearance requirements, no apprearance report. MSA should be included for measurement systems cited on the control plan.

You also don't need to include any of your supplier's process information such as FMEAs and control plans. For suppliers, just include the information needed to verify conformance to specifcations.

Well, I must say that all these data are already included in our PPAPs, and also three of our customers give us PPAP check list of items we must submit, and I go by with it, so at least I know that we've been submitting the data that these customers require for sure. The auditor said that two of our customers (which are actually the 2 of 3 customers requiring the check list) require to refer to AIAG PPAP manual for Part Approval Process. I do not recall seeing that we must submit our supplier PPAP to our customers in PPAP core tool book. Were there any? Maybe I'm missing something idk.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Well, I must say that all these data are already included in our PPAPs, and also three of our customers give us PPAP check list of items we must submit, and I go by with it, so at least I know that we've been submitting the data that these customers require for sure. The auditor said that two of our customers (which are actually the 2 of 3 customers requiring the check list) require to refer to AIAG PPAP manual for Part Approval Process. I do not recall seeing that we must submit our supplier PPAP to our customers in PPAP core tool book. Were there any? Maybe I'm missing something idk.

There's nothing in the book that says you must submit supplier PPAPs.

 

[Crimpshrine13]

There's nothing in the book that says you must submit supplier PPAPs.

That's what I thought. We'll probably need to challenge him for this NC. Thanks.

 

[Crimpshrine13]

There's nothing in the book that says you must submit supplier PPAPs.

I was reviewing the PPAP core tool book again. Do you think Appendix F - Bulk Material Specific Requirements on page 35 may be the one that the auditor was getting at for the plate process our plater does and the steel coils we purchase?

F.2 Applicability
Organizations are responsible for applying PPAP to their suppliers of ingredients which have organization-designated special characteristics.

Where OEM PPAP approval of a bulk material exists, evidence of that approval is sufficient as the PPAP submission at other levels in teh supply chain.

Examples of bulk material include, but are not limited to: adhesives and sealants (solders, elastomers); chemicals (rinses, polishes, additives, treatments, colors/pigments, solvents); coatings (top coats, undercoats, primers, phosphates, surface treatments); engine coolants (antifireeze); fabrics; film and film laminates; ferrous and non-ferrous metals (bulk steel, aluminum, coils, ingots); foundry (sand/silica, alloying materials, other minerals/ores); fuels and fuel components; glass and glass components; lubricants (oil, greases, etc.); monomers, pre-polymers (rubbers, plastics, resins and their precursors); and performance fluids (transmission, power steering, brake, refrigerant).

 

[IATFuser]

Hi!

We are tier-II suppliers and are IATF Certified. Some of the parts such as branding stickers and the part warranty cards that goes with our parts do not fall under any PPAP from our suppliers. In fact some of these suppliers are not ISO or IATF certified. They are just printers. How do we justify these to our IATF auditor if he asks us about sub-supplier control for PPAP or their certification.
We have not faced any quality issues from any of these suppliers

 

[Johnny Quality]

Hi!

We are tier-II suppliers and are IATF Certified. Some of the parts such as branding stickers and the part warranty cards that goes with our parts do not fall under any PPAP from our suppliers. In fact some of these suppliers are not ISO or IATF certified. They are just printers. How do we justify these to our IATF auditor if he asks us about sub-supplier control for PPAP or their certification.
We have not faced any quality issues from any of these suppliers

Do your procedures or customer requirements require you to have PPAP's from your suppliers?

As for certification, our beloved bible states in 8.4.2.3 that we need to develop our suppliers of automotive products and services. Are branding stickers and part warranty cards automotive products and services?

Since you are IATF certified you must have a method of monitoring your suppliers, you say you have no issues with them. I can't see a 3rd party auditor going further in depth for those type of suppliers, you must have suppliers more important to your business (raw material)?

 

[IATFuser]

@Johnny Quality Thank you for your inputs.

Yes the parts and stickers are automotive products. We do monitor supplier quality performance for reject rates and deliveries. We have not had any issues with the stickers and small parts. These suppliers are not ISO or IATF certified. Hence we do not get any PPAP data from them. However, the metal parts where we have in-house rejects because of supplier issues are IATF certified and provide us with PPAP data.

We were wondering if IATF external auditor will require all automotive sub-suppliers to provide us with PPAP. And also their certification requirement.

 

[Johnny Quality]

@Johnny Quality Thank you for your inputs.
We were wondering if IATF external auditor will require all automotive sub-suppliers to provide us with PPAP. And also their certification requirement.

The auditor can only audit the standard, your procedures and your customer requirements. If neither say your suppliers need PPAP documentation then don't worry.

I'm also tier-II in automotive and like you we have a mix of suppliers, some ISO certified, some IATF and some neither. I even have one supplier who is "ISO 9001:2015 registered excluding 7.1.5, 8.3 and 8.5.5". I have no issues with any of them and as such I leave them alone to do their good work, our auditor is happy with this.

From my experience our auditor was far more interested in my raw material suppliers performance and that our calibration providers were accredited to ISO/IEC 17025. However our raw materials are off the shelf plastic so your situation may be different.

Another point to make is if you decided that you want all your suppliers to be certified to IATF 16949 and PPAP'd to whichever level you choose...how many suppliers would you have left? How much would it all cost? And would your business be better off as a result? I dread to think what would happen if I went to some of our suppliers and demanded certification and PPAP, some of which our business to them is less than negligible.

 

[Ron Rompen]

In my past experience, I have always requested a full Lvl 3 PPAP submission from all my suppliers, and in a few select cases (critical components, highly sensitive components) I have also requested PPAP submissions from THEIR suppliers. However I did this on a case-by-case basis using the risk to the customer (and to us) as my guideline. There is nothing (that I am aware of) that mandates how far down your supply chain you have to go for PPAP submissions.