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Preventive Action (PA) and Corrective Action (CA) - One or Two Procedures?

One procedure or two

  • One procedure

    Votes: 64 54.7%

  • Got one, changing to two

    Votes: 8 6.8%

  • Two procedures

    Votes: 44 37.6%

  • I need more than two for my system (OUCH!!)

    Votes: 1 0.9%
  • Total voters
    117
Status
Not open for further replies.
D

db

#91
#91
RCBeyette said:
A preventive action would be when the difference from the norm was taking a downward trend to one of the limits. Not yet out of spec, but apparently heading in that direction. PA would entail maybe changing some equipment that has worn out, or getting a cup of coffee for the guy taking measurements for the samples...you get the idea.
Click to expand...
Ah ha!

Why are you taking action? "the difference from the norm was taking a downward trend to one of the limits". So, you are reacting to a situation. Your experience tells you that continual downward trend would lead to a nonconformance. You are correcting the trend. That's corrective.

Okay, let's change the scenario. Let's say you are making an adjustment because it means that it will save you money, or time or something. The process is okay, the way it is, but you want to make it better. Now that's prventive, right? No, you are reacting to a less than desirable state, but you are still reacting. Still corrective.
 
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RoxaneB

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#92
#92
db said:
Ah ha!

Why are you taking action? "the difference from the norm was taking a downward trend to one of the limits". So, you are reacting to a situation. Your experience tells you that continual downward trend would lead to a nonconformance. You are correcting the trend. That's corrective.

Okay, let's change the scenario. Let's say you are making an adjustment because it means that it will save you money, or time or something. The process is okay, the way it is, but you want to make it better. Now that's prventive, right? No, you are reacting to a less than desirable state, but you are still reacting. Still corrective.
Click to expand...
Could we discussing semantics here? Yes, I agree that action is being taken, to what degree?

In the first scenario, we are reacting to an adverse trend the could lead to nonconforming product. However, the nonconformance has not yet happened...and we are taking steps to prevent it from happening.

In the second scenario, we have stable process, but obviously wish to save money or time or something. To save money or time or something on a routine process is an improvement. To modify a routine is to hopefully improve the process. Once the goal is reached (i.e, once you have successfully saved the money or time or something), that new process becomes the routine.

As you aluded to earlier, we may never encounter a true "Preventive Action" in the real world (if we were to follow your reasons like the exercising and eating properly).

The reasoning that I've explained for our PA and Improvements is simply my organization's way (one organization out of many) of doing things. Not saying that it's better...but it works for us...and has since the 1980's. :D
 
D

db

#93
#93
RCBeyette said:
Could we discussing semantics here?
Click to expand...
We are way beyond semantics. I am existing in the twilight zone.

RCBeyette said:
...is simply my organization's way of doing things.
Click to expand...
And that is all that matters. If it works, call it what you like. Just make sure you can back up your words.
 
G

Greg B

#94
#94
When did the War start?

Do you know how disconcerting it is to wake up and find that the Northern Hemispere has been at War over corrective and preventative? because of my geographic location I rarely get to banter 'real time' with the cove and after reading some of this I wonder if that is a good or bad thing.

This string of posts is recounted and fought over in Many, Many threads and it is always the same. A 'Cover' asks for help to implement their system or they want US to offer some of our expertise (what we do in our workplace) and the conversation inevitably degenerates into a Chicken or the Egg discussion and NOONE wins. We should offer our advice (that is why we have - IMHO) and see if it helps the thread starter or the person that has asked the question. JMHO

I for example have ONE procedure as I personnaly think that these two subjects are intertwined and it cuts down on an extra procedure. I don't care if a person thinks that thier Issue is a preventative or a Corrective action as long as it stops a recurrence or an event from happening. :)

Greg B
 
G

gheghe

#95
#95
Dave N said:
Hi everyone-

Originally I had both the CA's & PA's separate from each other. It just made more sense to combine them. We now have one simple procedure for both. It works well for us. Keep it simple as you can as long as it is effective for your system.

Dave N
Click to expand...
We're using consolidated it into one.
 
Hershal

Hershal

Metrologist-Auditor
Staff member
Super Moderator
#96
#96
I'll offer a reply from the ISO/IEC 17025 world.....

One procedure or two makes no difference, so long as both are specifically addressed. In other words, CA can not imply PA, PA can not imply CA....both must be specific.

Hershal
 
Raffy

Raffy

Quite Involved in Discussions
#97
#97
CP Action

IMHO, it doesn't matter how this would be interpreted, one or two procedures or consolidate into one, as long as in your process your at ease is using it.

Raffy :cool:
 
C

Cari Spears

Super Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
#98
#98
We have one procedure. It is posted in the thread titled: "Preventive Action (PA) - Employee Suggestion Box, Engineering Change Order?"

Section 3.1.2 and 3.10 will be revised soon as we will be required in the very near future to provide formal process FMEA's to a number of newer customers that we are going to prepare FAI's for. I'll also add our APQP procedure to the list of reference documents in section 4.0.
 
D

DDaenen1

#99
#99
one procedure for the simple that:

- the less procedures, the better
- ISOand TS are process based so it makes sense to have have one-process orientated procedure describing your complete complaint/issue management system.
 
B

bobsedon

#100
#100
We have one procedure for the reasons others have posted. Fewer procedures is better and most people here would have a hard time understanding the differences.
 
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