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Preventive Action (PA) and Corrective Action (CA) - One or Two Procedures?

One procedure or two

  • One procedure

    Votes: 64 54.7%
  • Got one, changing to two

    Votes: 8 6.8%
  • Two procedures

    Votes: 44 37.6%
  • I need more than two for my system (OUCH!!)

    Votes: 1 0.9%

  • Total voters
    117
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gdwaikle

Involved In Discussions
Usually companies do a very good job of handling Corrective Actions. However they quite often include Preventive Action in the same procedure and don't do a very good job of identifying and monitoring and measuring PA's. I believe by separating them into two procedures the Preventive Actions have a better chance of being recognized and acted on. Preventive Actions can be things like setting action limits on processes such as Bioburden or other processes. The actions taken when excurations begin to occur that are recognized prior to a process failure can then be counted as a PA and appropriate measures can be taken. These are in essence what some companies would count as a CA, but it is more obvious a PA when it is treated this way.
 
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J

Justin

One Procedure
One Form

The only difference is : Are we correcting a problem or preventing one. Once that is determined then just fill out the necessary section on the form.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
The number of procedures is not an issue either way. I have spent a significant amount of time investigating the lack of preventive actions. The failure in preventive is not the procedures. In my experience, there are two root causes. We go months or weeks without any, and no one is pounding the table in meetings saying this is a big deal. No demand, no par's.

The other main cause is we are not looking for root causes, we are looking for solutions to problems. Consequently, we are limited in what kind of preventives we can initiate.

my two cents...
 
B

betterlife

APG Guidance on Preventive Actions

Following is the copy of the APG Guidance document on PA:

1) Introduction
ISO 9000:2000 clause 3.6.4 defines preventive action as “action to eliminate the cause of a potential nonconformity or other undesirable potential situation”.
This can be considered as an action taken to prevent a nonconformity from happening. However, if there is no nonconformity to start with, and if the preventive action is effective, the status quo will be maintained. This raises the difficulty of auditing a process for which the desired output is to maintain the status quo.
There is often confusion about the differences between the terms i.e. correction, corrective action and preventive action (please refer to ISO 9000:2000 for their formal definitions), and also in relation to an organization's activities in respect of each of them.
Auditing an organization’s correction and corrective action processes is relatively straightforward, because the results and effectiveness of these processes are usually well defined (i.e. if the organization has already identified a nonconformity, it is relatively simple for an auditor to evaluate the process the organization used, or is planning to use, to correct it, and whether or not this will be effective in avoiding re-occurrence of the nonconformity); however, auditing preventive action processes is usually more complex.

2) Auditing Guidance
2.1) ISO 9001:2000 requires the organization to have a documented procedure for preventive action.
Note: The combination of corrective action and preventive action documented procedures into a single QMS document is acceptable, but is not recommended. If these are combined, then it is important for the auditor to verify that the organization understands clearly the difference between the intent of corrective and preventive actions.
2.2) The Standard requires this documented procedure to include:
a) How the organization determines potential nonconformities and their causes.

Typical examples include:
 Trend analysis for process and product characteristics (output from the data analysis process). A worsening trend might indicate that if no action is taken, a nonconformity could occur.
 Alarms to provide early warning of approaching "out-of-control" operating conditions.
 Monitoring of customer perception, by both formal or informal feedback systems.
 Analysis of trends in process capability, using statistical techniques.
 Ongoing failure mode and effect analysis for processes and products (this is a requirement of TS 16949, for the automotive industry, for example).
 Evaluation of nonconformities that have occurred in similar circumstances, but for other products, processes, or other parts of the organization, or even in other organizations.
 Through planning activities for both predictable situations (e.g. due to expansion, maintenance, or personnel changes – see also ISO 9001, Clause 5.4.2b)) and for unpredictable situations (e.g. naturally occurring problems such as hurricanes, earthquakes, floods etc.)
 ISO 9004:2000 clause 8.5.3 Loss prevention provides other examples (Note: this ISO 9004 guidance is not mandatory).

b) An evaluation of the need for preventive action.
Methods used in the evaluation could include:
 Risk analysis approaches
 Failure mode and effect analysis, as mentioned in (a) above.
(Note: neither of these specific approaches or methodologies are requirements of ISO 9001:2000.)

c) How the organization determines what action is required, and how it is implemented.
An auditor should look for evidence that:
 the organization has analyzed the causes of potential nonconformities (use of cause and effect diagrams and other quality tools may be appropriate for this).
 the required actions are deployed in all relevant parts of the organization, and in a timely manner
 there are clear definitions of the responsibilities for the identification, evaluation, implementation and review of preventive actions

d) Records of the results of the actions taken
 What records are kept?
 Are they appropriate, and are they a true reflection of the results?
 Are they being controlled in accordance with ISO 9001:2000 clause 4.2.4?

e) A review of the preventive actions taken
 Were the actions effective (i.e. was a nonconformity prevented from occurring and were there any additional benefits)?
 Is there a need to continue with the preventive actions the way they are?
 Should they be changed, or is it necessary to plan new actions?

2.3) There is often significant “philosophical” discussion between the auditor and the organization about where corrective action ends, and where preventive action begins. For example, if a nonconformity is detected in process “A”, are actions taken to avoid future nonconformities in processes “B”, “C” and “D” preventive actions, or simply within the scope of the corrective actions taken for process ”A”? The auditor should avoid being “side-tracked” by these discussions, and concentrate on whether or not the actions were effective. The “labeling” of the actions taken is of secondary importance!
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
asutherland said:
Does CA occur, If the process was followed correctly?
Do you mean, does sh*t happen to the best of us? Yes.

asutherland said:
If PA is taking place, why does CA need to happen?
Because the best PA doesn't always account for everything, and if you expect that it will, you're more likely to have problems.

A person who thinks he has all the answers is more likely to be wrong than someone who understands his own ignorance.
 
A

asutherland

Experience has taught me that over 95% of the reasons for CA was that we were not following the method designed to prevent the occurance in the first place. The only reason I see CA to be effective is in those situations where the process did not cover the whole process.
An example might be..."Bent contact". If the stamping machine is cleaned, the stamp is not worn, etc... This machine will make a good contact. If I take the contact and correctly install it into a switch, it should work.
The problem here is, what about the action between making and building. If I do not consider how the material is handled between processes. This contact could get bent enought to not visually see, but still miss-function.
(Which many may say, oh, look, training problem...making the assumption that the contact was bent by the assembly process). If this root cause was determined, then the CA becomes the PA to cause it not to happen again.
I have seen too many excess CA's implemented causing extra work and non-value-added inspection when simply following the process will work.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
asutherland said:
Experience has taught me that over 95% of the reasons for CA was that we were not following the method designed to prevent the occurance in the first place. The only reason I see CA to be effective is in those situations where the process did not cover the whole process.
I think "over 95%" might be a bit of an exaggeration, and I'm not sure how a process can't cover a whole process, but I think I see your point. I agree that a lot of trouble could be saved if people would just follow the process, but when they don't, it's a good idea to look and see if there was a reason for them not to.

asutherland said:
An example might be..."Bent contact". If the stamping machine is cleaned, the stamp is not worn, etc... This machine will make a good contact. If I take the contact and correctly install it into a switch, it should work. The problem here is, what about the action between making and building. If I do not consider how the material is handled between processes. This contact could get bent enought to not visually see, but still miss-function.(Which many may say, oh, look, training problem...making the assumption that the contact was bent by the assembly process). If this root cause was determined, then the CA becomes the PA to cause it not to happen again.
Here you seem to be arguing against yourself and seeing value in the type of CA you didn't like in the first paragraph.

asutherland said:
I have seen too many excess CA's implemented causing extra work and non-value-added inspection when simply following the process will work.
Now you're back on the original track. I agree that formal CA isn't always necessary or prudent, and shouldn't necessarily happen every time something goes wrong, if that's what you're saying.
 
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