Preventive Action (PA) and Corrective Action (CA) - One or Two Procedures?

[Jim Wynne]

The official ISO definitions are pretty clear between CA and PA, but some old dogs don't want to accept the definitions as written. That is what leads to differing opinions, IMO.

ISO 9000-2000 (3.6.4 Note 2):
Preventive action is action taken to prevent occurrence whereas corrective action is taken to prevent recurrence.

The problem with the foregoing definition is that "recurrence" is a form of "occurrence." That is, a "recurrence" is an "occurence," although an "occurrence" is not necessarily a "recurrence."

In point of fact, it doesn't make a diddly-d*mn bit of difference what I call the respective types of actions, except to hopeless pedants who have their heads inextricably stuck in the standard, rather than in the process. Stop confusing the container for the thing contained and look at the work, and the results of the work if you want to find out about the efficacy of the system.Some "old dogs" are smart enough to follow the right scent and not be fooled by inconsequential distractions.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Some "old dogs" are smart enough to follow the right scent and not be fooled by inconsequential distractions.

Aw, c'mon, Jimmie...you may be an ol' dog on some posts...but this time around, your kind wasn't the kind I was talkin' bout.

The post I replied to was commenting on the confusion between what is correction (reactive) and what is preventive action (proactive).

The old dogs I was talking about were those who cling to the twenty year old paradigm of corrective actions become preventive and lump it all together into a mush.

I agree the container and titles are not the issue. However the ISO paradigm that proactive is better than reactive, that is extremely important. Most failures could be prevented if we were proactive.

arff...

PS: by the way, what's a pedant? Isn't that those dirty ol' men that have to register with the cops when they move?

 

[Jim Wynne]

PS: by the way, what's a pedant? Isn't that those dirty ol' men that have to register with the cops when they move?

See sense #1 here: http://www.bartleby.com/61/42/P0144200.html

 

[ScottK]

Re: Corrective Action (CA) and Preventive Action (PA) - One or Two Procedures?

I'm going to have one procedure, one tracking database, but two forms.

does that make sense?

 

[CarolX]

Re: Corrective Action (CA) and Preventive Action (PA) - One or Two Procedures?

I'm going to have one procedure, one tracking database, but two forms.

does that make sense?

Sure, why not...if it works. I actually have a multitude of PA forms, since we clasify calibration, preventive maintinance and engineering change orders as PA. They each have a seperate form.

 

[Statistical Steven]

Re: Corrective Action (CA) and Preventive Action (PA) - One or Two Procedures?

One procedure is sufficient, but remember they are two different processes. Corrective Action fixes the problem. Usually you put in place a preventative action to reduce or eliminate the problem, but preventative action processes should also include actions taken BEFORE a problem arises. Make sense?

 

[jbGUERRA]

Re: Corrective Action (CA) and Preventive Action (PA) - One or Two Procedures?



I too have been struggling with this PA -vs- CA issue.

Question: The both 8.5.2 and 8.5.3 state; "A documented procedure SHALL be established to define requirements for...." wouldn't you interpret this as 2 documents rather than combining the two?

I'm looking for direction prior to my upcoming August audit; your feedback is very much appreciated.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: Corrective Action (CA) and Preventive Action (PA) - One or Two Procedures?

Question: The both 8.5.2 and 8.5.3 state; "A documented procedure SHALL be established to define requirements for...." wouldn't you interpret this as 2 documents rather than combining the two?

You can do it either way.

From http://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink/3816351/APG-PreventiveAction.doc?func=doc.Fetch&nodeid=3816351

Note: The combination of corrective action and preventive action documented procedures into a single QMS document is acceptable, but is not recommended. If these are combined, then it is important for the auditor to verify that the organization understands clearly the difference between the intent of corrective and preventive actions.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: Corrective Action (CA) and Preventive Action (PA) - One or Two Procedures?

I too have been struggling with this PA -vs- CA issue.

Question: The both 8.5.2 and 8.5.3 state; "A documented procedure SHALL be established to define requirements for...." wouldn't you interpret this as 2 documents rather than combining the two?

I'm looking for direction prior to my upcoming August audit; your feedback is very much appreciated.

Try not to squeeze more out of the standard than you need to. In addition to Sidney's direct advice, look at the phrase "documented procedure." It's not a redundancy, it's referring to two different things: the procedure (the process) and the documentation of it. In other words, the standard is saying that it's not enough to have a process; the process also has to be documented. In other cases there is no requirment for processes to be documented. So when the two clauses both say that a "documented procedure" is necessary, just substitute "process" for "procedure" and you'll see why it's permissible to have a single document.

 

[CarolX]

Re: Corrective Action (CA) and Preventive Action (PA) - One or Two Procedures?

I too have been struggling with this PA -vs- CA issue.

Question: The both 8.5.2 and 8.5.3 state; "A documented procedure SHALL be established to define requirements for...." wouldn't you interpret this as 2 documents rather than combining the two?

I'm looking for direction prior to my upcoming August audit; your feedback is very much appreciated.

I have one top level procedure and a variety of lower level work instructions decribing how to accomplish all the points in my procedure.

For example - we clasify calibration and preventive maintainence as part of our PA system. I have seperate work instruction for those processes.