Preventive Action (PA) and Corrective Action (CA) - One or Two Procedures?

[Vu Nguyen]

Re: Eliminate misunderstanding

Dear Manix,

CA & PA is easy to be misunderstand, but could you view the FMEA form that can show you the preventive actions, most of preventive actions are applied for big issues. Let take an example: A problem had occurred on product A, then we take CA to remove the reasons, beside we also apply PA for product B. In this case, the problem already happened on product A, but not yet happened on product B. So the PA is correct for product B only.

That is my idea, please discuss.

Thanks, Vu Nguyen

 

[Coury Ferguson]

Re: Eliminate misunderstanding

Urm? Correct me if I am wrong but isn't prevention of reoccurrence the same as preventing occurrence?

How can you prevent something you do not know could exist!?

I see it as this:

Corrective action is stopping the bleed. Correcting something that is wrong. What oyu do with something you have found to be wrong.

Preventative Action is stopping the cause of the bleed from occuring again. How will you prevent it from happening. This PA can then be carried over for future Cont Imp activities to ensure the occurence cannot OCCUR!!!!

My take (opinion) on the differences between PA and CA are as follows:

CA=To correct the initial escape/nonconformity (otherwise bandage)
PA=To eliminate the potential escape/nonconformity (process failure)

Coury Ferguson

PS: I voted for two procedures

 

[Wes Bucey]

Re: Eliminate misunderstanding

My take (opinion) on the differences between PA and CA are as follows:

CA=To correct the initial escape/nonconformity (otherwise bandage)
PA=To eliminate the potential escape/nonconformity (process failure)

Coury Ferguson

PS: I voted for two procedures

I see what you describe as CA as "correction" and my definition of CA is to change the process to eliminate (as much as possible) future nonconformance.

Imagine a loose fitting causing a machine to turn out non-conforming product. A "correction" would be to tighten the fitting. A "corrective action" might be to add Loctite or other sealant to reduce the probability of future loosening.

Preventive action is an outgrowth of FMEA (Failure Mode & Effects Analysis) - essentially a "what if" exercise which allows us to build in controls into the process to reduce or eliminate the possibility of a nonconformance BEFORE any nonconformance occurs (meaning there is nothing to correct.)

In FMEA, we sit down and imagine, "What if this fitting works loose from vibration during operation? How will that affect the product? Let's put Loctite on it to reduce the chance of it working loose." Thus reducing the probability of ANY nonconformance.

 

[Coury Ferguson]

Re: Eliminate misunderstanding

I see what you describe as CA as "correction" and my definition of CA is to change the process to eliminate (as much as possible) future nonconformance.

Imagine a loose fitting causing a machine to turn out non-conforming product. A "correction" would be to tighten the fitting. A "corrective action" might be to add Loctite or other sealant to reduce the probability of future loosening.

Preventive action is an outgrowth of FMEA (Failure Mode & Effects Analysis) - essentially a "what if" exercise which allows us to build in controls into the process to reduce or eliminate the possibility of a nonconformance BEFORE any nonconformance occurs (meaning there is nothing to correct.)

In FMEA, we sit down and imagine, "What if this fitting works loose from vibration during operation? How will that affect the product? Let's put Loctite on it to reduce the chance of it working loose." Thus reducing the probability of ANY nonconformance.

Wes, that is a good definition of PA vs CA. Yes the PA would require the "what if" questions to ensure that the potential failure/escape/nonconformity would not occur.

Coury Ferguson

 

[Marc]

Re: Corrective Action (CA) and Preventive Action (PA) - One or Two Procedures?

Also see:

Preventive and corrective procedures - Separate Procedures? Special Procedures?
Corrective vs. Preventive Systems and Procedures - Separate Procedures?

 

[Rajeeva]

Re: Corrective Action (CA) and Preventive Action (PA) - One or Two Procedures?

Hi,

In my view, for all Corrective Action Requests, three below actions are to be implemented.

1. Remidial Action - (Immediate) - Immediate action to be implemented to make it acceptable.

2. Corrective Action - Action required to prevent the recurrance of the same in the same location/ project/ section

3. Preventive Action - Action implemented at some other location/ project/ section from the occurance of similar type of problem.

I believe that the ultimate aim of implementing all corrective actions/ preventive actions is to ensure the elimination of non-conformances. So the preventive action is effective only if the implemented corrective action is able to prevent the recurrance of the similar nonconformances.

Rajeev

 

[Baldrick]

Re: Corrective Action (CA) and Preventive Action (PA) - One or Two Procedures?

Boy, this thread does seem to go round and round in circles!

Rajeeva, your number 1 and 2 are correct but the activity you describe in number 3 is the part of the standard defined as Corrective Action Impact.

You CANNOT do preventive action in response to something that has already gone wrong.

If the problem has already happened, everything you do in response is CORRECTIVE. Stopping something happening again is CORRECTIVE ACTION. Applying this learning to other similar products and processes is CORRECTIVE ACTION IMPACT.

If you have foreseen a problem BEFORE IT HAS HAPPENED then everything you do to prevent it happening is PREVENTIVE.

Hope this helps.

Another way of putting it:

If your action is REACTIVE then it is CORRECTIVE
If your action is PROACTIVE then it is PREVENTIVE

 

[RoxaneB]

Re: Corrective Action (CA) and Preventive Action (PA) - One or Two Procedures?

You CANNOT do preventive action in response to something that has already gone wrong.

You'll probably find that many people will disagree with you on this to a certain degree...but I think I know what you're trying to say. Unfortuantely, not everything in Management Systems is so black-and-white.

I look at like this...the Corrective Action methodology can (and should) include Preventive Action, however, not all Preventive Actions are generated from a Corrective Action.

Situation
I'm going out for a long bike ride. Suddenly, my rear tires goes flat, my chain slips off and my brakes fail to work. Thankfully, I manage to roll my bike (and myself) into a soft field of grass. Phew!

Correction
Apply patch to tire and reinflate. Slip chain back on. Bike slowly home.

Corrective Action (developed after root cause analysis)
1. Purchase and install new tire.
2. Bring bike in to shop for service.
3. Bring all bikes of family members in for service, as well (don't want this to happen to them!)...sounds rather preventive.
4. Bring bikes in for tune-up prior to spring cycling season...rather preventive, too, don't you think?

Of course, the solely Preventive situation would involve a scenario where I am out for a bike ride and I find that my bike is becoming increasing more difficult to stop and my butt is beginning to hurt from the low pressure in the tire.

Preventive Action would have me bring in my bike before something horrible happens...better yet, Preventive Action would have me doing regular tune-ups and inspections of my bike so that I don't even have to worry about the brakes or tire pressure.

If your action is REACTIVE then it is CORRECTIVE
If your action is PROACTIVE then it is PREVENTIVE

I'm all for simplicity...but just keep in mind that a proper corrective action, will include proactive steps...actions that go behind merely fixing the description of the corrective action, but may apply to other areas.

We had a recent external audit finding where a micrometer was found to past due for calibration.

We calibrated it...correction.
We ensured that it had a history set-up in the software to ensure it wouldn't be missed again...corective action.
We checked every other piece of equipment in the software to ensure that it had a history which would guarantee a reminder of every calibration due date...preventive action within a corrective action.

 

[Baldrick]

Re: Corrective Action (CA) and Preventive Action (PA) - One or Two Procedures?

You'll probably find that many people will disagree with you on this to a certain degree...but I think I know what you're trying to say. Unfortuantely, not everything in Management Systems is so black-and-white.

I look at like this...the Corrective Action methodology can (and should) include Preventive Action, however, not all Preventive Actions are generated from a Corrective Action.

Situation
I'm going out for a long bike ride. Suddenly, my rear tires goes flat, my chain slips off and my brakes fail to work. Thankfully, I manage to roll my bike (and myself) into a soft field of grass. Phew!

Correction
Apply patch to tire and reinflate. Slip chain back on. Bike slowly home.

Corrective Action (developed after root cause analysis)
1. Purchase and install new tire.
2. Bring bike in to shop for service.
3. Bring all bikes of family members in for service, as well (don't want this to happen to them!)...sounds rather preventive.
4. Bring bikes in for tune-up prior to spring cycling season...rather preventive, too, don't you think?

Of course, the solely Preventive situation would involve a scenario where I am out for a bike ride and I find that my bike is becoming increasing more difficult to stop and my butt is beginning to hurt from the low pressure in the tire.

Preventive Action would have me bring in my bike before something horrible happens...better yet, Preventive Action would have me doing regular tune-ups and inspections of my bike so that I don't even have to worry about the brakes or tire pressure.

I'm all for simplicity...but just keep in mind that a proper corrective action, will include proactive steps...actions that go behind merely fixing the description of the corrective action, but may apply to other areas.

We had a recent external audit finding where a micrometer was found to past due for calibration.

We calibrated it...correction.
We ensured that it had a history set-up in the software to ensure it wouldn't be missed again...corective action.
We checked every other piece of equipment in the software to ensure that it had a history which would guarantee a reminder of every calibration due date...preventive action within a corrective action.

People are entitled to disagree, but I stand by everything I wrote.

The steps you talk about taking in your examples which you cite as "Preventive" are not Preventive Action - they have only come about as a result of something which went wrong - this puts them under the category of CORRECTIVE ACTION. In the case of some of your steps, CORRECTIVE ACTION IMPACT.

Had you thought to do these things BEFORE your mishap, they would have been PREVENTIVE ACTION.

Remember, we are not debating the meanings of English words - we're debating what the standard requires, and how the standard defines these terms.

In your examples, which steps would you define as the Corrective Action Impact? This is a required clause of the standard which no-one seems to remember. But it defines the type of action you describe as "preventive action within a corrective action".

All of the terms we're using are clearly defined in the standard - I understand there is still a lot of confusion, but people will grasp things a lot easier if they start by accepting the basic premise I mentioned previously:

BY DEFINITION - You CANNOT do preventive action in response to something that has already gone wrong.

Preventing something happening AGAIN is called CORRECTIVE ACTION IMPACT.

Regards,

Alex

 

[Rajeeva]

Re: Corrective Action (CA) and Preventive Action (PA) - One or Two Procedures?

Boy, this thread does seem to go round and round in circles!

Rajeeva, your number 1 and 2 are correct but the activity you describe in number 3 is the part of the standard defined as Corrective Action Impact.

You CANNOT do preventive action in response to something that has already gone wrong.

If the problem has already happened, everything you do in response is CORRECTIVE. Stopping something happening again is CORRECTIVE ACTION. Applying this learning to other similar products and processes is CORRECTIVE ACTION IMPACT.

If you have foreseen a problem BEFORE IT HAS HAPPENED then everything you do to prevent it happening is PREVENTIVE.

Hope this helps.

Another way of putting it:

If your action is REACTIVE then it is CORRECTIVE
If your action is PROACTIVE then it is PREVENTIVE

It is good to start with common ground i.e., you agree for number 1 & 2. The lesson learnt or the action implemented is effective and if you implement at another location/ project/ section (where this kind of problem may occur but not occured so far), then # 3 is the preventive action.

Rajeev