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Preventive Action (PA) and Corrective Action (CA) - One or Two Procedures?

One procedure or two

  • One procedure

    Votes: 64 54.7%

  • Got one, changing to two

    Votes: 8 6.8%

  • Two procedures

    Votes: 44 37.6%

  • I need more than two for my system (OUCH!!)

    Votes: 1 0.9%
  • Total voters
    117
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B

Baldrick

#201
#201
Noooooo!!!!

Hi Rajeeva, :)

Sorry to keep restating this, but No.3 in your example is NOT preventive action - it is CORRECTIVE ACTION IMPACT.

Preventive action can ONLY be taken to prevent something which has NOT YET HAPPENED! All 3 of the steps you define are done in relation to an ACTUAL NONCONFORMITY. This means they are all part of CORRECTIVE ACTION.

Here are the relevant clauses (from TS16949):

8.5.2 Corrective action

The organization shall take action to eliminate the cause of nonconformities in order to prevent recurrence. Corrective actions shall be appropriate to the effects of the nonconformities encountered. A documented procedure shall be established to define requirements for

a) reviewing nonconformities (including customer complaints),
b) determining the causes of nonconformities,
c) evaluating the need for action to ensure that nonconformities do not recur,
d) determining and implementing action needed,
e) records of the results of action taken (see 4.2.4), and
f) reviewing corrective action taken.

8.5.2.3 Corrective action impact

The organization shall apply to other similar processes and products the corrective action, and controls implemented, to eliminate the cause of a nonconformity.

8.5.3 Preventive action

The organization shall determine action to eliminate the causes of potential nonconformities in order to prevent their occurrence. Preventive actions shall be appropriate to the effects of the potential problems.

A documented procedure shall be established to define requirements for

a) determining potential nonconformities and their causes,
b) evaluating the need for action to prevent occurrence of nonconformities,
c) determining and implementing action needed,
d) records of results of action taken (see 4.2.4), and
e) reviewing preventive action taken.


Here are some definitions - note the final statement, which I cannot stress enough. "Preventive action is taken to prevent occurrence whereas corrective action is taken to prevent recurrence.":

Correction (ISO9000:2000 3.6.6)

Action to eliminate a detected nonconformity. A correction can be made in conjunction with a corrective action. A correction can be, for example, rework or regrade.

Corrective Action (ISO9000:2000 3.6.5)

Action to eliminate the cause of a detected nonconformity or other undesirable situation. There can be more than one cause for a nonconformity. Corrective action is taken to prevent recurrence whereas preventive action is taken to prevent occurrence. There is a distinction between correction and corrective action.

Corrective Action Impact (ISO TS 16949:2002 8.5.2.3)

Application of corrective action to other similar processes and products to eliminate the cause of a nonconformity.

Preventive Action (ISO9000:2000 3.6.4)

Action to eliminate the cause of a potential nonconformity or other undesirable potential situation. There can be more than one cause for a potential nonconformity. Preventive action is taken to prevent occurrence whereas corrective action is taken to prevent recurrence.
 
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R

Rajeeva

Quality Manager, CMQ/OE, CQA
#202
#202
Re: Noooooo!!!!

Baldrick said:
Hi Rajeeva, :)

Sorry to keep restating this, but No.3 in your example is NOT preventive action - it is CORRECTIVE ACTION IMPACT.

Preventive action can ONLY be taken to prevent something which has NOT YET HAPPENED! All 3 of the steps you define are done in relation to an ACTUAL NONCONFORMITY. This means they are all part of CORRECTIVE ACTION.

Here are the relevant clauses (from TS16949):

8.5.2 Corrective action

The organization shall take action to eliminate the cause of nonconformities in order to prevent recurrence. Corrective actions shall be appropriate to the effects of the nonconformities encountered. A documented procedure shall be established to define requirements for

a) reviewing nonconformities (including customer complaints),
b) determining the causes of nonconformities,
c) evaluating the need for action to ensure that nonconformities do not recur,
d) determining and implementing action needed,
e) records of the results of action taken (see 4.2.4), and
f) reviewing corrective action taken.

8.5.2.3 Corrective action impact

The organization shall apply to other similar processes and products the corrective action, and controls implemented, to eliminate the cause of a nonconformity.

8.5.3 Preventive action

The organization shall determine action to eliminate the causes of potential nonconformities in order to prevent their occurrence. Preventive actions shall be appropriate to the effects of the potential problems.

A documented procedure shall be established to define requirements for

a) determining potential nonconformities and their causes,
b) evaluating the need for action to prevent occurrence of nonconformities,
c) determining and implementing action needed,
d) records of results of action taken (see 4.2.4), and
e) reviewing preventive action taken.


Here are some definitions - note the final statement, which I cannot stress enough. "Preventive action is taken to prevent occurrence whereas corrective action is taken to prevent recurrence.":

Correction (ISO9000:2000 3.6.6)

Action to eliminate a detected nonconformity. A correction can be made in conjunction with a corrective action. A correction can be, for example, rework or regrade.

Corrective Action (ISO9000:2000 3.6.5)

Action to eliminate the cause of a detected nonconformity or other undesirable situation. There can be more than one cause for a nonconformity. Corrective action is taken to prevent recurrence whereas preventive action is taken to prevent occurrence. There is a distinction between correction and corrective action.

Corrective Action Impact (ISO TS 16949:2002 8.5.2.3)

Application of corrective action to other similar processes and products to eliminate the cause of a nonconformity.

Preventive Action (ISO9000:2000 3.6.4)

Action to eliminate the cause of a potential nonconformity or other undesirable potential situation. There can be more than one cause for a potential nonconformity. Preventive action is taken to prevent occurrence whereas corrective action is taken to prevent recurrence.
Click to expand...

No, Sir,

I think you have not interpreted my statement properly. What I am saying is when the lessons learnt/ effective corrective action implemented at one location/ site/ section will become preventive action at another location/ site/ section if this incident has not occured at that location/ site section so far.

Let me put this way!

Say, Mr. X has a three year old son. One day the kid fell ill and the father took him to a doctor. Doctor gave some tablets and cured him(1). When the kid fell ill again, doctor has suggested him to go for vaccination. After providing vaccination, kid did not fell ill(2).

When Mr. X became father of a second child, with his experience on his first kid illness, he went to the doctor and provided vaccination to the second child(3).

If you analyze this, 1 - is the remidial action, 2 is the corrective action and 3 is the preventive action.

Still you don't agree!!!

Regards,

Rajeev
 
B

Baldrick

#203
#203
Re: Corrective Action (CA) and Preventive Action (PA) - One or Two Procedures?

Hi Rajeeva,

No - I don't agree, and the definitions in ISO9000 don't agree!!! :)

Applying the learning from a nonconformity - even at different sites - is NOT preventive action.

What you describe is CORRECTIVE ACTION IMPACT!!!

Honestly, it really is!!!

Here is the clause again:

8.5.2.3 Corrective action impact
The organization shall apply to other similar processes and products the corrective action, and controls implemented, to eliminate the cause of a nonconformity.

PLEASE read the standard and explain why this clause doesn't cover what you are talking about!!!

Best regards,

Alex

P.S. You are not alone in not quite grasping this - earlier in this thread LOTS of people defined PA in the same way as you have.
 
R

Rajeeva

Quality Manager, CMQ/OE, CQA
#204
#204
Re: Corrective Action (CA) and Preventive Action (PA) - One or Two Procedures?

Baldrick said:
Hi Rajeeva,

No - I don't agree, and the definitions in ISO9000 don't agree!!! :)

Applying the learning from a nonconformity - even at different sites - is NOT preventive action.

What you describe is CORRECTIVE ACTION IMPACT!!!

Honestly, it really is!!!

Here is the clause again:

8.5.2.3 Corrective action impact
The organization shall apply to other similar processes and products the corrective action, and controls implemented, to eliminate the cause of a nonconformity.

PLEASE read the standard and explain why this clause doesn't cover what you are talking about!!!

Best regards,

Alex

P.S. You are not alone in not quite grasping this - earlier in this thread LOTS of people defined PA in the same way as you have.
Click to expand...
Hi,

Thanks for the clarification. You have used the reference from the standard I am not familier with. Corrective Action Impact (ISO TS 16949:2002 8.5.2.3)

Rajeev
 
Peter Fraser

Peter Fraser

Trusted Information Resource
#205
#205
Re: Corrective Action (CA) and Preventive Action (PA) - One or Two Procedures?

Rajeeva said:
Hi,

Thanks for the clarification. You have used the reference from the standard I am not familier with. Corrective Action Impact (ISO TS 16949:2002 8.5.2.3)

Rajeev
Click to expand...
What (avoidable) confusion! I haven't read TS 16949:2002, and seeing this definition from it I will leave it that way. How does this help anyone who is already struggling to work out why ISO9000 defines CA and PA separately?

"The organization shall apply to other similar processes and products the corrective action, and controls implemented, to eliminate the cause of a nonconformity." How do they define "similar"? If the NC didn't occur in the "similar process" - which by the definition it didn't - why is it not PA for this other process? Why introduce another term? Adding more words to a definition or procedure can often introduce more contradiction and confusion rather than it solves.

What if something went wrong in one process because it was not planned and defined in enough detail, or staff training had been neglected, or lessons hadn't been learned from previous instances of the process? Does it mean that improving any another process by addressing any of these factors ceases to be PA?

Once you have either (i) found a problem or (ii) realised that there is a risk of a problem, you need to respond by changing a process / giving training / allocating resources....

The trigger is different, but the action you take is the same. Identify a risk, and take action to mitigate it.
 
R

Rezzi

#206
#206
Re: Corrective Action (CA) and Preventive Action (PA) - One or Two Procedures?

Hi all,
we have only one procedure. In the forms we do not point out whether the action is corrective or preventive. Our registrar (BSI) didn't like the idea at the beginning but when I pointed out that our people (and myself) gets confused from time to time regarding the nature of the action, he accepted our procedure.

So I believe the way that works for you and your company is properly the best way
 
Ajit Basrur

Ajit Basrur

Staff member
Admin
#208
#208
Re: Corrective Action (CA) and Preventive Action (PA) - One or Two Procedures?

Seeing the confusion prevailing amongst us between CA and PA, I would keep my procedures seperate to avoid confusions amongst our employees. :cool:

Both of my procedures are seperate with illustrations provided as examples.
 
J

jhoniegudel

#209
#209
Re: Corrective Action (CA) and Preventive Action (PA) - One or Two Procedures?

I think it must be in separate procedure, because the difference between Corrective Action and Preventive Action.
Corrective Action : action taken to eliminate the cause of nonconformities in order to prevent reocurrence
Preventive Action : action taken to eliminate the cause of potential nonconformities in order to prevent their occurence.

jhoniegudel/GKD
 
H

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#210
#210
Re: Corrective Action (CA) and Preventive Action (PA) - One or Two Procedures?

jhoniegudel said:
I think it must be in separate procedure, because the difference between Corrective Action and Preventive Action.
Corrective Action : action taken to eliminate the cause of nonconformities in order to prevent reocurrence
Preventive Action : action taken to eliminate the cause of potential nonconformities in order to prevent their occurence.

jhoniegudel/GKD
Click to expand...

Your post just described the difference in two short sentences. The difference is only a few words. But you feel that makes it be two different procedures.

Either one or two is OK, but I am curious.
 
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