Preventive Action should not / cannot be taken when rectifying a problem

[Helmut Jilling]

Gritting the sidewalk before the ice is preventive action.
Salting the icy sidewalk is corrective action.

The failure mode I was inferring was the potential that someone would slip and fall.

My previous reply to the poster was simply the idea that if they prevent something before it happens, it is preventive. If they wait till after it happens, it is reactive. The steps on the CA/PA form (based on the standard) are the same.

I didn't want them to overthink it. Putting an awning over it would be preventive also.

 

[sathishthantri]

My entry here is rather late...
A problem is a gap between the actual level and the desired level. If this definition is to be considered, CA and PA are both applicable.

But if a problem is seen as non-conformity to a requirement, as most of the messages point out, then only CA has to be applied.

But I'm a firm believer that preventive actions cannot be termed as actions when you either “fix” an observed problem or when you try to remove the effect of causes which created the problem. Here by mentioning a problem, I take reference to non-conformities.

Two points raised by some in the group were “fix the problem” and “exclusion of preventive action in planning”.

And “fixing an observed problem” (like someone pointed out on oil spills) is a just a containment or a correction AND NOT NECESSARILY CORRECTIVE ACTION, forget that being a preventive action.

We should just check the number of times and under which context the word preventive action is mentioned in ISO 9004. We also will observe these do find a mention in planning activities.

Please refer 7.1.3.3 Product and process validation and changes in ISO 9004 : 2000
Use of simulation techniques can also be considered in order to plan for prevention of failures or faults in processes.
Risk assessment should be undertaken to assess the potential for, and the effect of, possible failures or faults in processes. The results should be used to define and implement preventive actions to mitigate identified risks.
Examples of tools for risk assessment include
— fault modes and effects analysis,
— fault tree analysis,
— relationship diagrams,
— simulation techniques, and
— reliability prediction.

 

[Sardokar]

Please correct me if i am wrong .

The way i see it is as follows (i will try to take examples to clarify my post)

Situation 1 :

We have sent to the customer products "A,B,C" while he had requested "A,B,D"

Correction : apologised from customer and sent him product "D: while asking him to return to us product "C"

Corrective Action : Investigate why the product "C" was sent instead of "D" :

-example of root causes : Sales representative misunderstood customer requirement due to a lack of technical knowledge

-example of corrective actions :

1) Make sure that for complex projects sales representatives are always accompanied with presales(which are more technically savy)
2) Technical Training to sales team

Situation 2

We have a Quality objective for Department "ABC" to reach a yearly Financial Target of 2 Million Dollars (15 % increase over average of last 3 years )

Come june we realise that Department "ABC" Financial results are only 500 K and there is a good chance the objective will not be met at the end of the year

Preventive Action : investigate why the Department ABC is having trouble keeping up with Objective

example of root cause : Not enough sales people /Sales people overworked and cant focus

example of preventive action : Hire experienced sales executives and/or focus on major customers that will allow us to reach financial target


Situation 3 :

We Have heard from a department Manager that an important employee "X" is seriously thinking about leaving the company

Preventive action : Investigate the root cause of this problem .

example of root cause: Late salaries (being payed on the 10th of each month) due to collection problems from customers

Example of preventive action : emphasize/train sales and accounting on collection from customers , Make sure to pay all employees on time even if some collection problems remain .

Do i have it right or am i missing something ?

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Please correct me if i am wrong .

The way i see it is as follows (i will try to take examples to clarify my post)

Situation 1 :

We have sent to the customer products "A,B,C" while he had requested "A,B,D"

Correction : apologised from customer and sent him product "D: while asking him to return to us product "C"

Corrective Action : Investigate why the product "C" was sent instead of "D" :

-example of root causes : Sales representative misunderstood customer requirement due to a lack of technical knowledge

-example of corrective actions :

1) Make sure that for complex projects sales representatives are always accompanied with presales(which are more technically savy)
2) Technical Training to sales team

Situation 2

We have a Quality objective for Department "ABC" to reach a yearly Financial Target of 2 Million Dollars (15 % increase over average of last 3 years )

Come june we realise that Department "ABC" Financial results are only 500 K and there is a good chance the objective will not be met at the end of the year

Preventive Action : investigate why the Department ABC is having trouble keeping up with Objective

example of root cause : Not enough sales people /Sales people overworked and cant focus

example of preventive action : Hire experienced sales executives and/or focus on major customers that will allow us to reach financial target


Situation 3 :

We Have heard from a department Manager that an important employee "X" is seriously thinking about leaving the company

Preventive action : Investigate the root cause of this problem .

example of root cause: Late salaries (being payed on the 10th of each month) due to collection problems from customers

Example of preventive action : emphasize/train sales and accounting on collection from customers , Make sure to pay all employees on time even if some collection problems remain .

Do i have it right or am i missing something ?

Those examples would work. I tuned your titles a bit.

The problem statement should articulate the
Potential nonconformity:
We Have heard from a department Manager that an important employee "X" is seriously thinking about leaving the company.

Root Cause:
Late salaries (being payed on the 10th of each month) due to collection problems from customers.

Preventive Action:
emphasize/train sales and accounting on collection from customers , Make sure to pay all employees on time even if some collection problems remain.

After actions were taken, verify the root cause has been eliminated, and thus, the potential nonconformity has been prevented. This is a critical step, as it validates whether the potential root cause has eliminated the potential nonconforming situation.

 

[lennon121]

Please correct me if i am wrong .

The way i see it is as follows (i will try to take examples to clarify my post)

Situation 1 :

We have sent to the customer products "A,B,C" while he had requested "A,B,D"

Correction : apologised from customer and sent him product "D: while asking him to return to us product "C"

Corrective Action : Investigate why the product "C" was sent instead of "D" :

-example of root causes : Sales representative misunderstood customer requirement due to a lack of technical knowledge

-example of corrective actions :

1) Make sure that for complex projects sales representatives are always accompanied with presales(which are more technically savy)
2) Technical Training to sales team

Situation 2

We have a Quality objective for Department "ABC" to reach a yearly Financial Target of 2 Million Dollars (15 % increase over average of last 3 years )

Come june we realise that Department "ABC" Financial results are only 500 K and there is a good chance the objective will not be met at the end of the year

Preventive Action : investigate why the Department ABC is having trouble keeping up with Objective

example of root cause : Not enough sales people /Sales people overworked and cant focus

example of preventive action : Hire experienced sales executives and/or focus on major customers that will allow us to reach financial target


Situation 3 :

We Have heard from a department Manager that an important employee "X" is seriously thinking about leaving the company

Preventive action : Investigate the root cause of this problem .

example of root cause: Late salaries (being payed on the 10th of each month) due to collection problems from customers

Example of preventive action : emphasize/train sales and accounting on collection from customers , Make sure to pay all employees on time even if some collection problems remain .

Do i have it right or am i missing something ?

Situation 1:

You are missing one vital corrective action here; WHat are you putting in place to stop reoccurance?

Situation 2:

Objectives should be acheivable based on achivable targets, correct resource and correct planning.

If each member of the sales team had a target of bringing in £1 million each and the goal was $15 million thern to start with you would need 15 sales heads and not hope that 7 would bring in twice as much.

Preventive action should be thought of as putting something in place that wouldn't put you in this position, again correct planning and resource.

Situation 3: The horse has already bolted, this is corrective action.

I suppose you could have good arguements with these comments but it keeps the conversation alive!

 

[Helmut Jilling]

My entry here is rather late...
A problem is a gap between the actual level and the desired level. If this definition is to be considered, CA and PA are both applicable.

But if a problem is seen as non-conformity to a requirement, as most of the messages point out, then only CA has to be applied.

But I'm a firm believer that preventive actions cannot be termed as actions when you either “fix” an observed problem or when you try to remove the effect of causes which created the problem. Here by mentioning a problem, I take reference to non-conformities.

Two points raised by some in the group were “fix the problem” and “exclusion of preventive action in planning”.

And “fixing an observed problem” (like someone pointed out on oil spills) is a just a containment or a correction AND NOT NECESSARILY CORRECTIVE ACTION, forget that being a preventive action.

We should just check the number of times and under which context the word preventive action is mentioned in ISO 9004. We also will observe these do find a mention in planning activities.

Please refer 7.1.3.3 Product and process validation and changes in ISO 9004 : 2000
Use of simulation techniques can also be considered in order to plan for prevention of failures or faults in processes.
Risk assessment should be undertaken to assess the potential for, and the effect of, possible failures or faults in processes. The results should be used to define and implement preventive actions to mitigate identified risks.
Examples of tools for risk assessment include
— fault modes and effects analysis,
— fault tree analysis,
— relationship diagrams,
— simulation techniques, and
— reliability prediction.

You are making this much more complicated than the ISO standard does in cl 8.5.3. Think of it as three different levels of problem solving:

7.3 Designing a prevention into a product is the best approach.
Before tooling has even been made, the problem has been designed away before the product even went into production.
Give yourself 3 points for great design.

8.5.3 Discovering a potential problem and preventing it from occurring is the second best approach. At least you prevented the costs associated with the failure if it occurred.
Give yourself 2 points for proactive problem solving.

8.5.2 Discovering a problem after it happens and preventing it from reoccurring (happening again) is the third best approach. You will bear the costs associated with the failure, but at least you prevented it from reoccurring (happening again).
Give yourself 1 point for REactive problem solving.

If you do nothing even after it occurs, give yourself 0 points, for not paying attention...

 

[ChrissieO]

8.5.2 Discovering a problem after it happens and preventing it from reoccurring (happening again) is the third best approach. You will bear the costs associated with the failure, but at least you prevented it from reoccurring (happening again).
Give yourself 1 point for REactive problem solving.

Surely this is corrective action if it has already happened, then putting controls in place to prevent re-occurance is part of the corrective action and not preventive action


Chrissie

 

[lennon121]

My original post was purely for terminology reasons, as this is the case
Crissie I believe you are on my wave level.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

8.5.2 Discovering a problem after it happens and preventing it from reoccurring (happening again) is the third best approach. You will bear the costs associated with the failure, but at least you prevented it from reoccurring (happening again).
Give yourself 1 point for REactive problem solving.

[\QUOTE]

Surely this is corrective action if it has already happened, then putting controls in place to prevent re-occurance is part of the corrective action and not preventive action


Chrissie

Yes, of course. The third example I gave is a description of Corrective Action. It mirrors the ISO definition of corrective - preventing a root cause from reoccurring.

 

[Sardokar]

Situation 1:

You are missing one vital corrective action here; WHat are you putting in place to stop reoccurance?

Situation 2:

Objectives should be acheivable based on achivable targets, correct resource and correct planning.

If each member of the sales team had a target of bringing in £1 million each and the goal was $15 million thern to start with you would need 15 sales heads and not hope that 7 would bring in twice as much.

Preventive action should be thought of as putting something in place that wouldn't put you in this position, again correct planning and resource.

Situation 3: The horse has already bolted, this is corrective action.

I suppose you could have good arguements with these comments but it keeps the conversation alive!

Thanks for replying

situation 1 :

the corrective actions would be either (as indicated in my post ) :

1) Make sure that for complex projects sales representatives are always accompanied with presales(which are more technically savy) ...as to understand correctly the customer requirements and not have misunderstandings in the future [/B]
2) Technical Training to sales team to help them better understand customer requirements

are these corrective actions not good ?


situation 2

if i had 3 sales people at the start of the year with a sales target of 2 Millions (total)

and i had 1 sales people quit around April ..should i modify the objective in April?

Why not wait till the Mid-year and examine the financial situation :

- If sales figures are really behind then we definately need to take preventive actions (which are in this case hiring new sales ).

- But if the remaining sales people were being able to cope with the extra duties (In this case they were not ) then why take preventive action ?

Situation 3

I respectfully disagree

The horse has not bolted ...he is THINKING of bolting

i still think a preventive action should be taken here and not a corrective action

could i have a Second opinion please ?