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Preventive Action should not / cannot be taken when rectifying a problem

Preventive action should not / cannot be taken when rectifying a problem

  • True

    Votes: 12 44.4%

  • False

    Votes: 15 55.6%
  • Total voters
    27
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M

Mahlon

#53
#53
True - CAR's are always actions that have already occurred i.e. a customer complaint, an internal audit NC, or a supplier's material that is out of spec. A PAR is an action that has not yet occurred i.e. a noisy bearing in a machine - has not ceased yet but propably will soon, a Preventative Action [PM] - filter change, an item corrected by a CAR on one machine [belt, motor, PCB, etc.] but is contained on similar machines located in other areas of your company is now a PAR but was a CAR initially. :)
 
S

samsung

#54
#54
Mahlon said:
A PAR is an action that has not yet occurred i.e. a noisy bearing in a machine - has not ceased yet but probably will soon, a Preventative Action [PM]
Click to expand...
Welcome to the Cove.

There are two points:

1. Please also consider the cost of implementing this Preventive Action for it would require a machine shut down that would certainly result in production loss. So, in this case, the action (e.g. replacement of the faulty bearing) may not bring expected gains.

2. It's a PA only as long as you think along one direction, i.e.; the resulting machine B/D but IMO, a nonconformance has already happened. Who knows if the machine noise has already escalated the workplace/ ambient noise beyond the prescribed limits before the machine is stopped for a 'PA'.

Even if you decide to replace it anyhow, you should generate a CAR in order to investigate the reasons why it failed without delivering the expected/ guaranteed service life.
 
S

sathishthantri

#55
#55
António Vieira said:
Preventive actions should be considered only when designing (eventually, planning) processes!
Click to expand...
Preventive actions, by definition, should be considered before an event occurs creating a non-conformity. And hence you are right that generally it is covered in the generic planning / designing all activities in order to prevent any problem.

If it is a reactive action, it can be classified as containment / correction / corrective action.
Containment actions are always preventive in nature, but when they are taken up AFTER THE DISCOVERED PROBLEM (non-conformity) one cannot classify them as preventive actions (as per the definations in ISOs). Also they are quick fix solutions which do not take into consideration the root cause(s). For example, an additional inspection in a process may contain the non-conforming product moving to the next process but it is not takling any causes (except in some freak cases wherein pundits may term the cause for such occurances of non-conformity as lack of inspection !!)
 
R

rnsvasan

Involved In Discussions
#56
#56
My interpretation is,
Corrective action - Implementing an action to avoid re-occurance
Preventive action - Exploring and preventing other possible causes on the newly implemented action.
 
S

Sardokar

#57
#57
sathishthantri said:
Preventive actions, by definition, should be considered before an event occurs creating a non-conformity. And hence you are right that generally it is covered in the generic planning / designing all activities in order to prevent any problem.

If it is a reactive action, it can be classified as containment / correction / corrective action.
Containment actions are always preventive in nature, but when they are taken up AFTER THE DISCOVERED PROBLEM (non-conformity) one cannot classify them as preventive actions (as per the definations in ISOs).
Click to expand...
I still dont gree

In my opinion i can take a preventive action at Half year if i think that my Financial yearly target has a risk of failing

In that case i would analyse the ROOT CAUSES of why we are not at half the target and take preventive actions so we Succeed in reaching the main objective (financial objective at end of year)

Shrug ... im not getting something
 
Bev D

Bev D

Heretical Statistician
Staff member
Super Moderator
#58
#58
Sardokar said:
I still dont gree

In my opinion i can take a preventive action at Half year if i think that my Financial yearly target has a risk of failing

In that case i would analyse the ROOT CAUSES of why we are not at half the target and take preventive actions so we Succeed in reaching the main objective (financial objective at end of year)

Shrug ... im not getting something
Click to expand...
you aren't missing anything, sathishthantri's definition was incomplete. Preventive actions (by ISO definition) can be taken at any time not just durign the design or planning phases. risks (Problems that have not yet occurred) may be identified at any time...
 
Sidney Vianna

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#59
#59
Sardokar said:
I still dont gree

In my opinion i can take a preventive action at Half year if i think that my Financial yearly target has a risk of failing

In that case i would analyse the ROOT CAUSES of why we are not at half the target and take preventive actions so we Succeed in reaching the main objective (financial objective at end of year)

Shrug ... im not getting something
Click to expand...
If anything and everything that is preventive in nature qualified as a preventive action, as required in 8.5.3 of ISO 9001, there would be no point in identifying preventive actions. Running a business requires a lot of preventive measures. 90% of a Quality Management System is preventive in nature. We (most of us) live our lives preventing problems. In the perfect world, an organization would have only preventive actions and zero corrective actions, while in the real world, most companies deal with corrective actions and struggle to come up with "auditor-pleasing" examples of preventive actions, most of them, "artificially created" to satisfy an auditor.

All of these numerous threads and discussions on "preventive actions" just show that even the constituents of the TC 176 can't clearly explain the INTENT of 8.5.3. While the definition is clear, pragmatic implementation isn't. And we went through a clarification cycle without TC 176 even touching that aspect of the standard. Proof (to me) how disconnected they are from ISO 9001 implementation in the real world.
 
Bev D

Bev D

Heretical Statistician
Staff member
Super Moderator
#60
#60
Sidney Vianna said:
...While the definition is clear, pragmatic implementation isn't. And we went through a clarification cycle without TC 176 even touching that aspect of the standard. Proof (to me) how disconnected they are from ISO 9001 implementation in the real world.
Click to expand...
Yay Sidney! that is exactly the issue. it is not our definitions, it is what we are supposed to do to 'satisfy' the requirement of 8.5.3

my current organization takes Preventive actions all of the time but few of these are input into our "Preventive Action" system. And our QA group doesn't quite know how to manage them either (bless their hearts - they are trying...) so the 'official' ones get treated just like Corrective Actions...:frust:
 
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