Preventive Action vs. Corrective Action - What about Root Cause?

Q

QAMMAN

#1
Greetings all,

Ok I'm going to break down and get involved.
I have been using the site now for a few months and have found it very helpful.

I am the Quality Assurance Manager, Management Rep, and Production Scheduler (I know, seems like a conflict of interest) at a small (40 employees) sheet metal manufacturing company in suburban Detoit.

We have been QS now for about 6 years and are pursuing TS registration.

I am down to writing my TS manuals last procedure (for Preventive Actions).

I hate this one because I have always said that a P/A could be written as a Continuous Improvement or a Preventive Action. (I know that I will get conflicting opinions on that one LOL)

I have read many postings that have said they combined the C/A and P/A forms as one. It occurs to me that would work fine for QS but not TS.

TS requires a seperate procedure for P/A's and C/A's. I am making the assumption that the two procedures should not be mirror immages of each other so how could the forms be.

One thing I like about TS is that TS does not require a procedure for Continuos Improvements but says you will continuouslly improve the QMS.

I am reading this as saying through the correvtive action and preventive action process you are continuouly improving the QMS.

One last point, wouldnt corrective action address root cause more closely than preventive actions? If you are trying to prevent an occurance how would you have a root cause already?

I had a 3rd party internal audit a while ago (that turned into a gap analysis audit because it went so bad) and the auditor told me I need to address root cause as part of preventive actions. I do not see this as part of the standard and do not agree with her.

all opinions are welcome

kindest regards

the QAMMAN
 
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CarolX

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#2
Re: The preventive action versus corrective action, what about root cause?

QAMMAN said:
I had a 3rd party internal audit a while ago (that turned into a gap analysis audit because it went so bad) and the auditor told me I need to address root cause as part of preventive actions. I do not see this as part of the standard and do not agree with her.

all opinions are welcome

kindest regards

the QAMMAN
Hi QAMMAN and glad to have you posting.

First off, let me say that I know LESS than nothing about TS (and I plan to keep it that way - LOL).

2nd - how can you have a root cause of something that has not occurred? CA addresses the root of problems, PA is actions you take to prevent known problems...i.e. calibrate your calipers so you don't form parts out of tolerance. Am I making sense?

Dunno - I will defer to the TS experts.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#3
QAMMAN said:
TS requires a seperate procedure for P/A's and C/A's. I am making the assumption that the two procedures should not be mirror immages of each other so how could the forms be.
Although there are separate clauses and separate "shalls," there is no requirement for separate documents. There will be separate processes, but both may be documented in the same written procedure. Opinions differ widely as to the advisability of a single document, but there is no "rule" against it.

QAMMAN said:
One last point, wouldnt corrective action address root cause more closely than preventive actions? If you are trying to prevent an occurance how would you have a root cause already?

I had a 3rd party internal audit a while ago (that turned into a gap analysis audit because it went so bad) and the auditor told me I need to address root cause as part of preventive actions. I do not see this as part of the standard and do not agree with her.
From 8.5.3:
The organization shall determine action to eliminate the causes of potential nonconformities...[Emphasis added]
It goes on to say in (a) that the documented procedure for preventive action must
...define requirements for...determining potential nonconformities and their causes.
While it doesn't say "root" causes, and should say "Potential" causes (because as Carol perceptively points out, neither the cause or the defect has occurred, by definition), I think it's clear that the subject of causes must be addressed, and that means, in effect, root causes.
 
Q

QAMMAN

#5
Thanks Jim, I see your point, I think I will do just that in my procedure replace "root" with "probable" and see what the reaction is. Its likely that know one will even notice.---the QAMMAN
 
D

ddunn

#6
I am no TS expert either.
Here is my take on CA/PA and root cause.

Corrective action - Fixes a problem: (Fire Fighting)
problem - calipers out of calibration​
Fix - calibrate calipers​

Preventative Action - Stop the problem from happening again: (Fire Prevention)
Root Cause - Why were the calipers out of calibration?
Why?
Why?
WHY
Why?
Solution
Implement solution
Check​

A PA may also start with no problem observed. This would be a "What if" or "This could become a problem" scenario. Root cause would still be preformed on this type of PA.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#7
QAMMAN said:
Thanks Jim, I see your point, I think I will do just that in my procedure replace "root" with "probable" and see what the reaction is. Its likely that know one will even notice.---the QAMMAN
If you say in your procedure that you find and document "probable" causes, I would say that's better and more accurate than "root." If your auditor is splitting hairs, you might want to change the procedure just to make him/her happy, but I would discuss the situation first, so long as your procedure (and process, of course), identifies the need to look for potential, probable, latent, budding, prospective root causes .:rolleyes:
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#8
ddunn said:
I am no TS expert either.
Here is my take on CA/PA and root cause.
Just be aware that your take does not jive with the ISO 9000:2005 definitions. Comparing your take to ISO 9000, what you call corrective action should be called correction. What you call preventive action is the ISO 9000 definition of corrective action.

Further, please note that ISO 9000 is a NORMATIVE reference for ISO 9001.
 
E

eplink

#9
Hello QAMMAN,

Let me first address the question about root cause. Preventive action is about taking aim at likely failures. If you implement preventive action, you have taken steps to eliminate or minimize a perceived root cause. That works for me - I hope it works for you.

In support of your comment about the similiarity between preventive action and continual improvement, I offer the following excerpts from one of our publications.

"Preventive action on the other hand, is intended to avoid potential problems. In doing so, it certainly qualifies as an improvement. Since the net effect of removing the potential for problems is to make the system more robust, I see preventive action as continual improvement."

"The effect of implementing appropriate preventive actions is to make a process less susceptible to nonconformities. This would imply that the safety margin between the distribution of outcomes and the specifications has improved. This reduced variation makes the process more robust. Sounds just like continual improvement to me."

Ed Link
 
L

Laura M

#10
When I do 3rd party internal audits, or regular internal audits for clients I consult with, I write 'observations' that get entered as preventive actions.

I would be interested in everyone's take on that. The procedure referenced internal audits as one of the inputs.

Example: Last week I did an audit in which there was a change in vendor for the oils and coolants used. I could find no evidence that the incorrect coolant was in use, however with the conversion to the new vendor, no one documented the 'equivalency' - basically using the brand name rather than the generic name was in the older documentation. In addition, the storage and labeling was disorganized. Again, everyone interviewed was using the correct substance, according the the ops manager and engineers. I wrote a 'preventive action' in that the lack of a conversion chart, and the old documentation 'could' lead to a problem, and also against 'work environment' in that I thought the storage could lead to a problem.

The gaging situation described above, I would consider 'immediate action' and 'permanent action' but not preventive because a problem was found.
 
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