Printed documents can't be controlled

K

kgott

#1
My employer has the phrase "downloaded and printed documents are uncontrolled" in the footer of the document.

I have explained thats it's inconsistent with:

4.2.3 "Documents required by the quality management system shall be controlled." and
4.2.3. g) to prevent the unintended use of obsolete documents

I have suggested;" downloaded and printed documents may be out of date, check with the sharepoint document before use" but to no avail.

The argument is that we have no control over what happens to a printed or downloaded document.

I think the existing statement is something of a negative statement. I know that no process is perfect but how do I overcome this problem??

We are not certified so there is no CB auditor to whisper to and customer audits don't go deep enough to find it.

Thanks in advance
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#2
My employer has the phrase "downloaded and printed documents are uncontrolled" in the footer of the document.

I have explained thats it's inconsistent with:

4.2.3 "Documents required by the quality management system shall be controlled." and
4.2.3. g) to prevent the unintended use of obsolete documents
This can be both simple and tricky at the same time. Your employer has gone for a paperless system and probably cover the requirements in the standard by means of the statement in the footer.

In practice, however, you are right: It can be a real bind trying to prevent people from creating their own "stash" of documents. Acknowledging how hard it is to prevent people from getting copys in print or otherwise, we have gone in the opposite direction and stated that it is in fact allowed to print a copy for temporary use (Perhaps for a meeting or when you need to bring it somewhere else for some reason). In doing so, however, it is your personal responsibility to ascertain that the copy is up to date and discarded after use.

As for digital copies, the fact that all templates for written procedures are lodged in the Sharepoint application we use for them, pretty much forces the users to work with the documents within that application, as intended and as allowed by the system administrators. We also allow links to the valid documents: The links will not change even if the document is updated.

How this turns out depends on training and company culture among other factors, but it works for us.

/Claes
 
Z

zancky

#3
my modest opinion if your company may need paper copy etc

an automatic footnote :

"this copy will expire on XX"(i.e. YY days from having printed)
"having printed or dowonloaded this copy don't obligate the system to aware You on future updating"
 

somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#5
At 4.2.3 d) of the ISO9001, it is said ...
d) to ensure that relevant versions of applicable documents are available at points of use
So, all your points of use of the documents have access to the required documents without downloading and printing.
So there is no need for downloading and printing.
If you have such an infrastructure then your employer has the valid phrase, and if over and above someone still download and print, they are not valid.
 
R

Randy Lefferts

#6
My employer has the phrase "downloaded and printed documents are uncontrolled" in the footer of the document.

I have explained thats it's inconsistent with:

4.2.3 "Documents required by the quality management system shall be controlled." and
4.2.3. g) to prevent the unintended use of obsolete documents

I have suggested;" downloaded and printed documents may be out of date, check with the sharepoint document before use" but to no avail.

The argument is that we have no control over what happens to a printed or downloaded document.

I think the existing statement is something of a negative statement. I know that no process is perfect but how do I overcome this problem??

We are not certified so there is no CB auditor to whisper to and customer audits don't go deep enough to find it.

Thanks in advance
Are you saying that the bolded part above would help to control printed documents? I do not see much difference in either of the methods (printed copies not controlled vs may be out of date, check sharepoint). Both require comparing against the master document to ensure it's the latest revision.

I also don't see how adding a statement that a document is good for xxx amount of time after printing is controlling printed copies either. IMO it's not as good as a blanket "Printed copies are not controlled" statement. Imagine someone printing the document at 8am and at 1pm the document is updated. If that copy is good for 24 hours, then you have a situation that an invalid document is being used.

Bottom line, you want to control documents and prevent the use of obsolete documents. Having a master document electronically available for use controls the document. If they have to go to the computer to access/print the document, you are controlling that they only get the latest and greatest. If you have "Printed copies are not controlled" then you are directing them to the electronic version (current level of document) and thus preventing them from using an obsolete printed version.

Now, aside from banning all documents from being printed by perhaps disabling the ability to prevent printing, you can't "control" where a paper copy ends up. That is a personnel issue. In other words, no matter what we do to control documents, there are those that will make copies or print a copy and slide it in a workbook or tape it somewhere.
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#7
We use a statement in the footer "Valid for 24 hours from XXX (Insert the "PrintDate" field here)" for documents that had to be printed.
I have clients whose software prints this automatically, :agree1: which looked great but did require them to print over and over if the hard copy document had not been otherwise stamped by Document Control. I don't know what feature in Word would do this, but I expect there is a function available in later versions.
 
K

kgott

#8
Thanks for the replies. I gather there is no real solution to this probelm as having any disclaimer in the document about avalidity is in contravention of 4.2.3 and 4.2.3 g.

Just because a document is downloaded or printed off in hard copy does not mean that its out of date.

Downloading or printing off documents is always going to happen for a multitude of reasons. Having something like sharepoint reduces the need for such activity but does not eliminate it.

I think i'll stick with my own suggestion as just because they are printed or downloaded does not mean they are out of date and therefore obsolete.

Perhaps what might also work is that when a documented changes then the changes have to be communciated, perhaps this is time to say that all existing electronic and hard copies are obsolete as of xyz date and time so putting print date in the document may work if this can be done as Jennifer alludes to.

thanks - k
 
G

GoKats78

#9
I have clients whose software prints this automatically, :agree1: which looked great but did require them to print over and over if the hard copy document had not been otherwise stamped by Document Control. I don't know what feature in Word would do this, but I expect there is a function available in later versions.
Go to Insert-Field-PrintDate... (in every version prior to 2007...not sure how to do it 07 and later...the new version make is so much more difficult to do anything - sometimes newer isn't better. I'm not usually one the resists software updates, but this one is a very good design change...)
 
R

Randy Lefferts

#10
Thanks for the replies. I gather there is no real solution to this probelm as having any disclaimer in the document about avalidity is in contravention of 4.2.3 and 4.2.3 g.
Hi kgott,

Actually, I disagree that the solutions offered are a violation of 4.2.3 and 4.2.3g.

4.2.3 Control of documents
Documents required by the quality management system shall be controlled. Records are a special type of document and shall be controlled according to the requirements given in 4.2.4.


If you are controlling the master electronic copy, you are meeting the above.

g) to prevent the unintended use of obsolete documents, and to apply suitable identification to them if they are retained for any purpose.

If you are directing people to the master copy, you are meeting the above. By stating that printed copies are uncontrolled, therefore they may not be the latest version, you are directing people to check a printed copy against the master copy, to ensure the correct version is being used.


Just because a document is downloaded or printed off in hard copy does not mean that its out of date.
Totally agree. Again, that's another reason that stating a printed copy is good for 24 hours is not the "best" way. Who is to say that the printed copy is now out of date because 24 hours have elapsed?

Downloading or printing off documents is always going to happen for a multitude of reasons. Having something like sharepoint reduces the need for such activity but does not eliminate it.
Yes, agreed again. Yet another reason to adopt a "Printed copies are not controlled" method. Very hard to control every single person in the company and keep someone from not only printing a copy of something, but also not disposing of the document, which means printed copies of documents may end up on a press, on a shipping dock, at an operators station, etc. In most any method of control other than "Printed copies are not controlled" you have a potential violation just waiting to be found.

I think i'll stick with my own suggestion as just because they are printed or downloaded does not mean they are out of date and therefore obsolete.
You do need to do what you feel you can manage but I think that your intial method is on the mark. You stated that you currently employ a "Printed copies are not controlled" method. Obviously I am one that promotes that method. ;)

Perhaps what might also work is that when a documented changes then the changes have to be communciated, perhaps this is time to say that all existing electronic and hard copies are obsolete as of xyz date and time so putting print date in the document may work if this can be done as Jennifer alludes to.
If you could guarantee every person removes every printed copy lying under someone's pile of papers, in a rarely used job program book, etc. then this would work. At the end of the day, even though you may have a good (on paper - pardon the pun) system to control your documents, it is ultimately left up to people to ensure that the old documents are removed. One missed document can lead to a nonconformance.

Ultimately, it's a culture thing. I don't have the luxury of knowing that every single document will be removed because let's face it, how can I know how many printed copies are floating around out in the shop, in the engineering offices, at plant 3, or wherever? The "best" way for me to ensure that we don't use an obsolete document is to develop the culture that everyone goes to the specified location on the intranet and work from those documents. If they choose to print something, well, the "Printed copies are not controlled" works. It's a culture thing though, as everyone would need to ensure they always pull the latest data/document from the server or check a printed copy against the latest document on the server.

:2cents:
 
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