Procedure as per TS 16949 - Consultant changed text procedure to flow chart

#21
Attached is a basic flowchart for our receiving inspection. The inputs and outputs are established to fit our system and may be different for others.
Scopes and objectives are determined during the process development stage. Interaction of processes work instructions and forms are integral to the software program.
 

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jerryt

#22
I'm looking for an example for format of a procedure that uses flowcharts instead of traditional text. I'm either making it harder then it needs to be or haven't bridged the gap in understanding the technique that would simplify our procedure documents yet make them understandable. Would appreciate any examples.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#23
OTOH, I had a client who wrote their procedures as flowcharts, and their registration auditor stated that their flowcharts were not procedures, and refused to audit until they translated the flowcharts into text.
That registrar may be SRI, their website FAQs states:

Q "Are flow charts acceptable procedures?"
A "Although flow charts alone are not fully accepted as procedures, their use can often enhance the understanding of your system procedures."

Note how they have phrased their question and answer about what their auditors will accept instead as what is required for conformity to the system standard. They should be lobbying TC176 et al to change the standards not changing the rules for their customers.
 
#24
Their (SRI) answer is an opinion and not a statement of fact. A flow chart is a pictorial presentation of a process and when prepared properly is no less effective than than a text document. TS only requires 7 written procedures, all other process definitions can be documented in the flow chart format or the tabular form, such as a control plan.
 
#25
And to continue on with that Sam, the mandated procedures spell out what the minumum controls must be. If a flow chart contains all of the mandated controls (and clear enough for folks to follow), I can see no way that it could be considered to be unacceptable.
 
T

The Moose

#26
Their (SRI) answer is an opinion and not a statement of fact. A flow chart is a pictorial presentation of a process and when prepared properly is no less effective than than a text document. TS only requires 7 written procedures, all other process definitions can be documented in the flow chart format or the tabular form, such as a control plan.
Sorry to be pedantic but the TS standard does not require any "written" procedures, it requires "documented" procedures but nowhere does it say these must be written :)
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#28
I saw the SRI answer to the FAQ as a statement of SRI policy stating what one can expect from their auditors. I am pleased to report that SRI have today (10/01/2007) updated the FAQ webpage to read as follows:

"Are flow charts acceptable procedures?

Flow charts can be an effective means to illustrate your procedures. The organization must understand that all references indicated under a particular clause that requires a procedure must be met. Often times we see flow charts that alone can not be fully accepted as procedures due to the lack of requisite detail/steps. A flow chart that meets the requirements indicated for a particular procedure can often enhance the understanding of your system procedures."

This is a much better statement of opinion.:)
 
#29
Flow charts can be an effective means to illustrate your procedures. The organization must understand that all references indicated under a particular clause that requires a procedure must be met. Often times we see flow charts that alone can not be fully accepted as procedures due to the lack of requisite detail/steps. A flow chart that meets the requirements indicated for a particular procedure can often enhance the understanding of your system procedures."
Wow - what does that mean? Do they expect that flow charts will exist to describe (documented) procedures? Are they saying that if a procedure is undocumented that a flowchart would be a way to document it? Is a flowchart going to fix a poorly written, documented procedure? Who fully accepts the flowchart details? The external auditor? If it doesn't satisfy them, but the organization gets and can demonstrate good results, is that still an NC?

:confused:
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#30
Agreed, they still seem conflicted; perhaps one or two of their lead auditors are prejudiced when it comes to organizaations using flow charts as documented procedures. At least they are no longer outlawing them. And we can all ignore the opinions of auditors.
 
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