Procedure as per TS 16949 - Consultant changed text procedure to flow chart

M

Martijn

#31
Ha, that used to be my job as a consultant, transforming massive piles of written text into sleek flowcharts. Never ever have I heard an auditor complain about that format, including BVQI, BSI & Lloyds. Lloyds even have a "example procedure format" which is in flowchart form.

:topic:
I was wondering this might be a European thing? There's a lot of more things I read about on these forums concerning "authoritive" auditors prescribing how things should be done, and most of them seem US-based.

back on topic:

The thing with written text is that a lot of times changes are not well thought through. "Let's put in another sentence right here to please the auditor". Flowcharts really depict what happens, and can show open ends/interaction with other procedures much more clearly IMHO. Written text procedures tend to become cluttered and poorly maintained with your average Joe Quality manager.
 
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somerqc

#33
At my very first company, I was one of (if not the) first person in the company to change procedures from written text to flowcharts.

This company had a policy of having others visit plants that were already registered (my plant was 4th of 12) to learn how to construct their system (from a format perspective...not content). After I changed to flowcharts, I had 3 visitors AND the registrar's auditors comment on how much they liked the flowcharts and how much it improved the knowledge of the supervisors and workers. I even received comments from the workers.

Since then, I have been a flowchart guy. I have found that most people are visual people and flowchart "invite" them to read the procedure

:2cents:

John
 
#34
Wow - what does that mean? Do they expect that flow charts will exist to describe (documented) procedures? Are they saying that if a procedure is undocumented that a flowchart would be a way to document it? Is a flowchart going to fix a poorly written, documented procedure? Who fully accepts the flowchart details? The external auditor? If it doesn't satisfy them, but the organization gets and can demonstrate good results, is that still an NC?
I think what they (SRI) are saying is that each mandated procedure has certain "shalls" built in. Each of those a-h things must be evident in the flow chart. If for example, the flow chart for doc control does not mention docs of external origin, then it would be the same as if a documented procedure did not address the documents of external origin.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#35
I think what they (SRI) are saying is that each mandated procedure has certain "shalls" built in. Each of those a-h things must be evident in the flow chart. If for example, the flow chart for doc control does not mention docs of external origin, then it would be the same as if a documented procedure did not address the documents of external origin.
I agree, but I share Andy's concern over the extraordinarily poor construction of the explanation. It could be condensed to, "Flowcharts are acceptable as documented procedures so long as they are adequately detailed."
 
#36
Having given more thought to this discussion I think that maybe the terminology may be confusing.
Basically a procedure is a method of doing something and can be described either in the written word, by flow charts, or a sequence of pictures; any method that gets the job while meeting the requirements.
As noted earlier the key word in the Standard is "documented" which I had earlier mis-stated as "written".
 
#37
... It could be condensed to, "Flowcharts are acceptable as documented procedures so long as they are adequately detailed."
And there is your misconception. You are assuming that brevity, clarity and conciseness are what are important. :bonk: However, the answers must be written in a way that only the writer knows is being said. That way, the reader has to go back to the writer for clarification (think MORE DOLLARS). Will you ever learn?
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#38
And there is your misconception. You are assuming that brevity, clarity and conciseness are what are important. :bonk: However, the answers must be written in a way that only the writer knows is being said. That way, the reader has to go back to the writer for clarification (think MORE DOLLARS). Will you ever learn?
You're right, I'm sorry. :tg: Once again I go back to George Orwell and Politics and the English Language, an essay that should be required reading for everyone who writes process documentation. An example from the essay:
I am going to translate a passage of good English into modern English of the worst sort. Here is a well-known verse from Ecclesiastes:
I returned and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
Here it is in modern English:

Objective considerations of contemporary phenomena compel the conclusion that success or failure in competitive activities exhibits no tendency to be commensurate with innate capacity, but that a considerable element of the unpredictable must invariably be taken into account.
Note that the essay was written in 1948, so what Orwell describes as "modern English" doesn't seem to have improved much in sixty years.
 
#39
A little bit off topic. :topic:

Even though my previous post was meant in humor, we do have a tendency to over write our documentation. We tend to want to make our docs "sound" official or important. And we write things at a much more complex level than they really need. Just as SRI's answer could confuse folks, so could our own documentation. We really need to look at what we write to make sure it is clear, concise and brief.
 
S

somerqc

#40
Good point DB,

As I write this (a little break for me), I am condensing a 17 page procedure to 5. Why was it 17? We had a group of people that wouldn't do anything unless it was in the procedure :)mad:). They are now gone and the remainder plus replacements are following the procedure as required - the procedure can be condensed to show critical points and responsibilities.

This is my step in simplifying the documentation yet still communicating the requirements of the procedure.:D

This also points out that sometimes you have to do MORE than you want due to the audience you are writing (documenting?) to.
 
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