Procedure binding even if not required by the standard - Where's the requirement?

[vanputten]

"ISO9001-2000 requires 6 Procedures. All other documentation should be referred to as work instructions in your system to achieve conformance to standard."

I also disagree with this advice. Call your documents what you want. You may have as many documented procedures as you want.

Regards,

Dirk

 

[ralphsulser]

Procedures written beyond the standard are just as binding as the required 6.
Why would you want to write and publish a procedure if it was not binding to follow it? If your company is not going to follow your procedure, revise it or eliminate it.

Say what you do, and do what you say, simple as that.

 

[ScottK]

All procedures are optional.
Getting canned for ignoring procedures is an option too.

 

[Coury Ferguson]

Hello All:

I disagree with Randy. 4.2.1d and 4.2.3 only describe requirements for having documents and controlling them. These requirements do not say you have to follow them.

Don't you think that Paragraph 4.2.3, from ISO9001:2000, quoted below applies to this scenario? If there is a "shall" stated, in my opinion you have to follow it. The "shall" requires a procedure, which in turn requires that it is followed.

...A documented procedure shall be established to define the controls needed...

I think this is saying that you must have procedures. If a Procedure is written even if its not part of the 6 minimum procedures than it becomes a living document and therefore the company has incorporated it into their Business System.

I think mirrorcrax has raised a worthy question.

I agree with Mirrorcrax. I think the 4.1 f) is as close as we will get to such a requirement.

You have every right to agree or disagree, but in my opinion, 4.2.3 is the requirement, and a last resort 4.1 would also apply.

 

[Coury Ferguson]

ISO9001-2000 requires 6 Procedures. All other documentation should be referred to as work instructions in your system to achieve conformance to standard.

That is the choice of the company.

As for calling them Work Instructions, they still become a living document.

 

[ScottK]

ISO9001-2000 requires 6 Procedures. All other documentation should be referred to as work instructions in your system to achieve conformance to standard.

er...
ISO only specifies 6 procedures.
Unless those 6 procedures can cover everything needed for "the effective planning, operation and control" of the business you're gonna need more.
Call them what you want: Policy, procedure, work instruction is just semantics and up to your internal definition.

 

[Randy]

Hello All:

I disagree with Randy. 4.2.1d and 4.2.3 only describe requirements for having documents and controlling them. These requirements do not say you have to follow them.

I started a thread about this a long time ago. I asked, where in ISO 9001 is there a requirement that procedures have to be followed?

I never learned the answer. I did receive many replys from "tell the employee to follow it or be fired" to response that indicated the question was without merit.

I started the thread becasue I thought it was interesting that ISO 9001 does not have an overt clasue that states something like all documented processes must be followed.

I think mirrorcrax has raised a worthy question.

I agree with Mirrorcrax. I think the 4.1 f) is as close as we will get to such a requirement.

Regards,

Dirk

I guess I'd better change careers because I obviously don't know what the he1l I'm talking about.

 

[Coury Ferguson]

I guess I'd better change careers because I obviously don't know what the he1l I'm talking about.

Randy you don't want to do that.

 

[silly girl]

Hello All:

I disagree with Randy. 4.2.1d and 4.2.3 only describe requirements for having documents and controlling them. These requirements do not say you have to follow them.

Actually NOTE 1, under 4.2.1 states:"Where the term 'documented procedure' is appears within the International Standard, this means that the procedure is established, documented, implemented and maintained."

I have always taken this to mean that we are required to follow our documented procedures, because the definition of "implement" according to the dictionary is "to put into practice". It makes no particular sense to have documents that you don't follow - that would be ludicrous! Everytime I have run into an instance where actual practice differs from procedure I cited it against 4.2.1.

Silly Girl

*edit- fixed a type

 

[Coury Ferguson]

Actually NOTE 1, under 4.2.1 states:"Where the term 'documented procedure' is appears within the International Standard, this means that the procedure is established, documented, implemented and maintained."

I have always taken this to mean that we are required to follow our documented procedures, because the definition of "implement" according to the dictionary is "to put into practice". It makes no particular sense to have documents that you don't follow - that would be ludicrous! Everytime I have run into an instance where actual practice differs from procedure I cited it against 4.2.1.

Silly Girl

Bravo Silly Girl You have made my "A" list, what ever that means.