Procedures Required by ISO 9001:2008

[vanputten]

Re: ISO 9001:2008 Required Procedures

TXSUN:

What is a PRM? Be careful with using acronyms.

 

[Chance]

Re: ISO 9001:2008 Required Procedures

Why do you think that it's necessary for a procedure for a process? Why, for example, can't a process be defined verbally? Or maybe a form used to check off and record the various steps through the process?

Just interested in the discussion as to why...

It would be a nightmare to control if procedures are not written. Then everybody will do it their own way, at the end of the day everybody will have different outputs. How can you cantrol that if you have not written anything. How can you justify who is doing wrong or right?

 

[Chance]

Re: ISO 9001:2008 Required Procedures

To list the processes will meet the requirements of 4.2.2.c. this is how I interpret the standard. The procedures will just make it easier to understand the process.

We created a flowchart specifying input, process, output.

 

[TXSUN]

Re: ISO 9001:2008 Required Procedures

That was one of my original questions. : )

I could not find it on the cove, so I had to turn to Google. This is what I found:

PRM: The process reference model is a logical representation of the elements of the processes that can be performed at a basic level. Using the reference model in a practical application might require additional elements suited to the environment and circumstances.

If anyone has additional information on this acronym, as it relates to ISO9001:2008, I would GREATLY appreciate it! (Especially if I am wrong!)

 

[AndyN]

Re: ISO 9001:2008 Required Procedures

It would be a nightmare to control if procedures are not written. Then everybody will do it their own way, at the end of the day everybody will have different outputs. How can you control that if you have not written anything. How can you justify who is doing wrong or right?

Not at all! In a small company, there are often processes which work very well without documentation. I agree a bigger company might need more documentation, but it has to be addressed case by case and not - ever - a mandate when ISO 9001 doesn't require it and it's no justification for doing the documentation!

Your points are apropos to determine if documents might be needed, but not justification in and of themselves.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: ISO 9001:2008 Required Procedures

That was one of my original questions. : )

I could not find it on the cove, so I had to turn to Google. This is what I found:

PRM: The process reference model is a logical representation of the elements of the processes that can be performed at a basic level. Using the reference model in a practical application might require additional elements suited to the environment and circumstances.

If anyone has additional information on this acronym, as it relates to ISO9001:2008, I would GREATLY appreciate it! (Especially if I am wrong!)

I had asked earlier what PRM stands for, as I had never seen the abbreviation. You didn't ask about it originally; you used it as if you knew what it means. Now that you've provided a definition, it sounds like some kind of flowchart. There are people who are in the habit of renaming common things in the misbegotten belief that the new names seem more important or official, or something. These people and their abbreviations should be avoided. I wouldn't worry about it, in other words.

 

[Chance]

Re: ISO 9001:2008 Required Procedures

Your points are apropos to determine if documents might be needed, but not justification in and of themselves.

IMHO, processes have to be documented in such a way that we can see and figure out where we can improve. It does not have to be because ISO require or don't require. We have to document good business practices.
Also, it helps when new hires come onboard, they can refer to the written procedure. I don't quite understand why you said my points are apropos. Anyway, those are just my humble opinion, that is how I forsee it. Things will become messy and chaotic if procedures are not written. There is no way you can validate if people are doing it right or wrong.

 

[vanputten]

Re: ISO 9001:2008 Required Procedures

Chance:

Are you saying that every process you are involved in is documented? There is no way to optimally document every process. It is not needed and would be a nightmare to control and manage.

Is there a documented procedure on how to start your car? How to order from a fast food restaurant? How to swing on a swing at a play ground? How to send an e mail? How to use the internet? Is a child provided with a documented procedure as to how to tie a shoe?

Many, many processes in life and business are not documented but understood and repeatable. Some process are beneficial to document based on how complex it is, how critical it is, how widespread the use is, how often the process is performed, the identified risks, etc.

 

[AndyN]

Re: ISO 9001:2008 Required Procedures

I don't quite understand why you said my points are apropos.

ap·ro·pos (pr-p)
adj.
Being at once opportune and to the point. See Synonyms at relevant.
adv.
1. At an appropriate time; opportunely.
2. By the way; incidentally: Apropos, where were you yesterday?
prep.
With regard to; concerning: Apropos our date for lunch, I can't go.

 

[Chris_Anderson]

Re: ISO 9001:2008 Required Procedures

IMHO, processes have to be documented in such a way that we can see and figure out where we can improve. It does not have to be because ISO require or don't require. We have to document good business practices.
Also, it helps when new hires come onboard, they can refer to the written procedure. I don't quite understand why you said my points are apropos. Anyway, those are just my humble opinion, that is how I forsee it. Things will become messy and chaotic if procedures are not written. There is no way you can validate if people are doing it right or wrong.

People need to know outcomes not procedures. A Process map is sufficient for explaining the process. Most new hires get trained through on-the-job training (OJT) and are then let loose. Focus people on process outcomes, defects, and nonconformances and you will have a system to evaluate their training (6.2.2). Procedures are not required for every process but outcomes are...