Process Approach beef - Registrar says that we 'should' use the process approach

I

in_cr_ove

#11
a real situation. happens frequently.
syndrome is called - "my shirt is whiter than yours".
particularly in this case, approach is not an issue.
one demonstration that we give in our training sessions is - "lifting handkerchief".
wherever you pick it from, gradually whole of handkerchief gets lifted.
:)
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#12
It's late, I've had a long day..

in_cr_ove said:
a real situation. happens frequently.
syndrome is called - "my shirt is whiter than yours".
particularly in this case, approach is not an issue.
one demonstration that we give in our training sessions is - "lifting handkerchief".
wherever you pick it from, gradually whole of handkerchief gets lifted.
:)
Could you explain the 'handkerchief' thing...??:confused:

Andy
 
G

Greg B

#14
Randy said:
Part of the reason it may look like the audit is being done by clause is that the accreditation bodies must be provided evidence that everything (within the standard) is being covered. At least that's my guess.
Im tend to agree with Randy!

In reality, we (My Company) Internally Audit OUR Process and the External guys (registrar) ensure that we have adopted all the relevant clauses of the Standard. They really don't care what our process is, and nor should they, as that is our responsibility (we are the experts at what we produce and how we produce it)..please don't forget that YOU are responible for the quality of the product you produce... the Registrar is not a QC consultant that comes in and checks every item to ensure that it is good enough for your customer. A registrar ensures that your system is in line with the Quality System certification requirements and if this means that they will check you against the clauses then that is what they will do. Don't ever be afraid to ask your auditor why they are doing something...they work for YOU...they are not government appointments...if you have an issue with them then debate it or just plain talk about it. (gets off soapbox)
 
I

in_cr_ove

#15
the demonstration is to emphasise that action is more important than the sequence of improvement.
example: where should we start with 5S or, Kaizen?
handkerchief approach says - wherever you start from eventually the whole organisation will be benefited.
hope, it explains the context.
:)
 
#16
Thanks!

in_cr_ove said:
the demonstration is to emphasise that action is more important than the sequence of improvement.
example: where should we start with 5S or, Kaizen?
handkerchief approach says - wherever you start from eventually the whole organisation will be benefited.
hope, it explains the context.
:)
Now I get it!

Andy
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#17
Lee said:
I have a beef. My registrar says that we should use the process approach. But, the registrar schedules audits by clause. When they audit, they audit closer to the clause than the process approach. I don't get it! :confused:

So, I am curious if anyone else has noticed this happening in their audits.
Do we need a poll?

I'm late entering this thread, but, for what seems like the 47th time... RAB/ANAB and IAOB require that both registrars and organizations MUST audit using a process approach based on the processes defined by the organization.

This requirement may have started a little slow a few years ago, but there is no doubt or confusion anymore. Anyone still auditing by clauses is not following the rules and will eventually be written up. A registrar still doing this is inexcusable.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#18
The rules still apply

hjilling said:
I'm late entering this thread, but, for what seems like the 47th time... RAB/ANAB and IAOB require that both registrars and organizations MUST audit using a process approach based on the processes defined by the organization.
I don't disagree with you, but just like registrar auditors have to stick to the requirements, so must the accreditation body auditors. So, in order for ANAB to "enforce" the process approach to auditing, this should be documented as a requirement somewhere. I can not find it. ISO Guide 62, the IAF Guidance to Guide 62, ANAB procedures, Heads-Ups, Advisory Notices. I can not find it. Do you know where ANAB has documented such requirement?
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#19
Sidney Vianna said:
I don't disagree with you, but just like registrar auditors have to stick to the requirements, so must the accreditation body auditors. So, in order for ANAB to "enforce" the process approach to auditing, this should be documented as a requirement somewhere. I can not find it. ISO Guide 62, the IAF Guidance to Guide 62, ANAB procedures, Heads-Ups, Advisory Notices. I can not find it. Do you know where ANAB has documented such requirement?

It is a good question, and for the life of me, I don't understand why the AB's are so coy about this. They are increasingly adament during witness audits, but so slow and reluctant in actually writing down their expectations. I would like them to simply spell it out clearly, not with veiled, abstract language.

Having said that, the TS rules, 2nd ed., finally is pretty clear. The ANAB published an advisory, Issue 61 (attached), which infers it. But, to date, the strongest clear push I have seen is the witness audits are almost anal in their insistence on it.

Can't attach a copy. It is already available at http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=15116
It is all the way back at the 3rd post on that thread.
 
Last edited:

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#20
Somebody has to challenge the AB's

hjilling said:
The ANAB published an advisory, Issue 61 (attached), which infers it. But, to date, the strongest clear push I have seen is the witness audits are almost anal in their insistence on it. Can't attach a copy. It is already available at http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=15116
It is all the way back at the 3rd post on that thread.
Thank you. ANAB's HU # 61 is available here. I agree that it encourages the process approach. However, let's remember that the Heads Up document is NOT an enforceable document. It is an expectation communication tool from ANAB. Concerning the IAOB's witness audits, no comments.

From what I gather, after talking with many representatives from different CB's, a good percentage of CB representatives are afraid of challenging AB auditors, just like many organization representatives are afraid of challenging registrar auditors.

Now, it would be interesting to know if the accreditation bodies themselves are performing process based audits, in accordance with this document.
 
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