Process Approach Challenge - Please Define what the 'Process Approach' is

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D

DrM2u

#2
Here's my stab at it:

Any organization is a system: it has inputs (some needs that need to be satisfied), has the 'black box' (where needs are being addressed) and outputs (satisfied needs). Within the 'black box' are a series of inter-related processes that transform the inputs into outputs in a systematic way. These processes require materials, equipment, manpower, methods, measurements, facilities, and an environment to exist. I think that these 'definitions' are most commonly taught in manufacturing and management curriculums in colleges and universities, although I did encounter the same in an Instructional Design curriculum. A similar description of systems and processes was used a few years back when I went through the TS16949 Lead Auditor certification program. :read:

IMHO, the key is whether organizations recognize this structure or recognize that 'there is something going on' that keeps them alive but not sure how to define it. Therefore, in my opinion, 'the process approach' starts with an organization recognizing and understanding its system and the processes employed, defining the processes and their interractions (ISO 9001 4.1.a, 4.1.b & 4.2.2.c), and evaluating the effectiveness of the processes and the system (ISO 9001 8.2.3). I believe it is irrelevant if the organization refers to its processes as 'processes', 'procedures', 'departments', 'things they do' or anything else.:magic:
 
N

ngaran

#3
Process Approach Challenge - Please Define what the 'Process Approach' is.

Can you describe it in your own words in a post here?
its not what you defined, its what you do with what you defined.

Can you give one or more example(s)?
if plans do or don't work out, replan. repeat this formula regularly for best results.
 

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#4
Instead of listing out the shalls of the standard and just looking for verification that they are covered, a process audit looks at the process (or subprocess) and how it works. Inputs, outputs, controls, etc. To me, this is the method where you actually get a real feeling for how well you are doing. The elemental approach is just yes or no.:2cents:
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#5
Here's my stab at it:

Any organization is a system: it has inputs (some needs that need to be satisfied), has the 'black box' (where needs are being addressed) and outputs (satisfied needs). Within the 'black box' are a series of inter-related processes that transform the inputs into outputs in a systematic way. These processes require materials, equipment, manpower, methods, measurements, facilities, and an environment to exist. I think that these 'definitions' are most commonly taught in manufacturing and management curriculums in colleges and universities, although I did encounter the same in an Instructional Design curriculum. <snip>
OK - Let me throw this in. It's what sorta gets me when I hear 'process approach'. Years ago when I was in college my major was biology with chemistry and anthropology as minors. Everything is a system. I'm not a business person by education. It just sorta happened.

Take a person. You have inputs (from food to senses), you have quite a few outputs (from sweat to urine to muscle movement). This is your 'Black Box'. There are many internal and external interactions.

Now - How does this differ from a business? And in the sense of business, what does it mean? The way I see it every business is a set of processes. Like different forms of life there are different businesses, and even within a specific business arena (let's say metal stamping or injection molding) each company will have similar, but different internal processes. A company has no choice but to have processes as well as internal and external communications.

In short - What is new in all of this? Even in auditing to the standard - One may have a checklist of the requirements of the standards but one *has* to audit the processes. If an auditor is going to audit to any specific requirement of, say ISO 9001, the auditor by necessity has to audit the applicable processes. I've done a fair amount of auditing over the years and I can say by my definition every one has been a process audit and included the interaction of processes.

Again, a business is no different than a living organism. It is a series of processes (and I will point out here that in my writings I typically equate a process to a system) which interact with each other.

Back when I was heavily into implementations, one of the first things I did was go through each of the company's processes with them to ensure we could identify each system (aka 'process') and how each interacted with others. Process Mapping (I did the original around 1995 as an FYI) We went through every document and mapped them: Document Mapping

I guess I'm missing something but this all seems so basic to me that I have a hard time seeing why anyone would make such a big deal as if "The Process Approach" is anything new and/or different than it ever was.

That all said, I again ask - What is the process approach? In the other thread the original question was along the lines of "Should auditors promote the process approach?" What does that mean? What is it, specifically, that auditors should be "promoting'? To me it appears to be more of an issue of whether an auditor does more than look to see if a company has a procedure to address a requirement of a standard. If all an auditor does is look to see if a company has a procedure to address a requirement of a standard, them in my book it is nothing more than, if even, a desk audit.

Now - Let's say that "Should auditors promote the process approach?" is a valid question, exactly what would an auditor do to promote a "process approach"? What would the auditor tell them to do differently? In short, if I ask an auditor what is *not* a process approach, what will I be told?
 
I

ISO 9001 Guy

#6
Process Approach Challenge - Please Define what the 'Process Approach' is.

Where is it defined?

Can you describe it in your own words in a post here?
Can you give one or more example(s)?

Let's see where this goes... :notme:

Cheat Sheet: Existing 'Process Approach' discussion threads.
Although my idea of what the process approach is does not qualify as a "definition" of the process approach, here's my best shot at a succinct description of it:

The process approach is a WAY of managing processes toward improvement, a way by which management views and manages processes systemically to achieve desired outcomes.

To understand the term "process approach," a (very) little background may be useful to us here now. The process approach received its name out of necessity to distinguish it from an approach now commonly regarded as the standard-based approach or element-by-element approach. Or, what we might call the "old school approach." Had the intent of ISO 9000 been respected originally, the old school approach would never gained headway and there never would have been reason to define the phrase "process approach." Why? Generally, a process approach to process management is natural.
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#7
Instead of listing out the shalls of the standard and just looking for verification that they are covered, a process audit looks at the process (or subprocess) and how it works. Inputs, outputs, controls, etc. To me, this is the method where you actually get a real feeling for how well you are doing. The elemental approach is just yes or no.:2cents:
Even if one is auditing to a list of the requirements of a standard, how can one avoid looking at the actual processes? The only way I can see this being done is by calling that audit by what it is - a Desk Audit. Although I always did a Desk Audit (at one time called pre-assessments by registrars) prior to doing the 'real' audit, I have never seen an audit properly done where all that was done was listing out the shalls of the standard and just looking for verification that they are covered without going out onto the floor and into the offices and following document and system trails.

I know I wasn't ahead of the curve in how I did auditing. When I finally did my first lead auditor course in 1994 that was the way I was auditing and that was the way the course taught auditing - You took the requirement, then you took the documentation, then you went out and looked at the actual processes being performed. You looked at inputs and outputs. You followed document and record trails. You looked to see if their systems were effective in part through auditing their non-conformance, internal audit and related systems. You checked records. You interviewed people.

I used to do a fair amount of internal auditor training. Even in the early 1990's the biggest part of auditing was getting out there with the documentation (and into non-documented systems and procedures as well) to see if they were doing things as they described. Compliance was *never* limited to something like "OK - I see you have a procedure to cover that so let's move on". That was the way I taught it and it was the way I was taught.
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#8
Although my idea of what the process approach is does not qualify as a "definition" of the process approach, here's my best shot at a succinct description of it:
So far, Monty Python would be proud...
The process approach is a WAY of managing processes toward improvement, a way by which management views and manages processes systemically to achieve desired outcomes.
Each company decides how they will do this internally. If an audit is supposed to 'show' them how to do it, it's consulting, not auditing.
To understand the term "process approach," a (very) little background may be useful to us here now. The process approach received its name out of necessity to distinguish it from an approach now commonly regarded as the standard-based approach or element-by-element approach. Or, what we might call the "old school approach." Had the intent of ISO 9000 been respected originally, the old school approach would never gained headway and there never would have been reason to define the phrase "process approach." Why? Generally, a process approach to process management is natural.
Read what I said above. The "old school approach" was never intended to be a simple "show me a procedure that shows me you address this requirement and we'll move on". Anyone who audited like that wasn't trained properly. I can't say I never saw an auditor audit like that, but any auditor that did was obviously not auditing they way they were supposed to and wouldn't have passed an auditing course.

Auditing by the standard-based approach (aka element-by-element approach) doesn't change what auditors were taught to do: "Show Me" was the catch phrase. That's where the auditor dug into the processes and the documentation and the records, interviewed people, checked inputs and outputs, and in general ensured that the company's processes were effective.
 

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#9
I've seen people use the "gap analysis" sort of checklist and never once try to get a picture of what is actually happening other than to make sure that there is a quality manual, x number of procedures, a list with retention times for all records, etc.

That being said, I've never really done anything other than process oriented audits, so maybe I'm all wet?
 
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