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Process Approach Requirement for Internal Audits in TS 16949

Howard Atkins

Howard Atkins

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Staff member
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#21
#21
Re: Is there a requirement for process approach internal audits in TS 16949?

After consultation I see that it is in fact in the standard

8.2.2.4 Internal audit plans
Internal audits shall cover all quality management related processes, activities and shifts, and shall be scheduled according to an annual plan.
Click to expand...
In fact as you must audit the processes this means the process approach
 
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Big Jim

Super Moderator
#22
#22
Re: Is there a requirement for process approach internal audits in TS 16949?

I'm not really involved with TS 16949, but I do have a copy of that standard.

Indeed, there is a shall for process based internal auditing, at least for the manufacturing processes.

"8.2.2.2 Manufacturing process audit

The organization shall audit each manufacturing process to determine its effectiveness."
 
Jim Wynne

Jim Wynne

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#23
#23
Re: Is there a requirement for process approach internal audits in TS 16949?

Big Jim said:
I'm not really involved with TS 16949, but I do have a copy of that standard.

Indeed, there is a shall for process based internal auditing, at least for the manufacturing processes.

"8.2.2.2 Manufacturing process audit

The organization shall audit each manufacturing process to determine its effectiveness."
Click to expand...
The problem is that there's a difference between auditing via the process approach and auditing a single process. The former takes interactions of processes into account while the latter doesn't necessarily. TS16949 adopts the language of ISO 9001 (0.2) without adding anything to it. Thus both standards "promote" the use of the process approach but don't explicitly require it to be implemented. In reality, I've never seen a business, certified or otherwise, whose management system was based on the process approach.
 
B

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#24
#24
Re: Is there a requirement for process approach internal audits in TS 16949?

Jim Wynne said:
The problem is that there's a difference between auditing via the process approach and auditing a single process. The former takes interactions of processes into account while the latter doesn't necessarily. TS16949 adopts the language of ISO 9001 (0.2) without adding anything to it. Thus both standards "promote" the use of the process approach but don't explicitly require it to be implemented. In reality, I've never seen a business, certified or otherwise, whose management system was based on the process approach.
Click to expand...
Interesting perspective.

Somehow I picture, in this sense, that manufacturing processes would include all of product realization. First impressions arn't always accurate. If it does include all of product realization would that not usually cover the lions share of the processes to be audited?

On company's management systems not following the process approach I have seen several that do. That is the approach that I take in writing a quality manual. When I help a company determine their processes to base the manual on, many had not looked at it that way before. After identifying their processes it is much easier to guide them on the process approach as they identify with it, since it is theirs. Helping them to determine key performance indicators for each process, as much as possible using data they already gather, just move them further along.

The process approach is not strictly an ISO principle. I studied it in business school decades ago. If you would like to see an interesting recent treatment along these lines, Harvard Business Review had a fifteen page article on key performance indicators in the January 2008 issue.
 
Jim Wynne

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#25
#25
Re: Is there a requirement for process approach internal audits in TS 16949?

Big Jim said:
Interesting perspective.

Somehow I picture, in this sense, that manufacturing processes would include all of product realization. First impressions arn't always accurate. If it does include all of product realization would that not usually cover the lions share of the processes to be audited?

On company's management systems not following the process approach I have seen several that do. That is the approach that I take in writing a quality manual. When I help a company determine their processes to base the manual on, many had not looked at it that way before. After identifying their processes it is much easier to guide them on the process approach as they identify with it, since it is theirs. Helping them to determine key performance indicators for each process, as much as possible using data they already gather, just move them further along.

The process approach is not strictly an ISO principle. I studied it in business school decades ago. If you would like to see an interesting recent treatment along these lines, Harvard Business Review had a fifteen page article on key performance indicators in the January 2008 issue.
Click to expand...
A business based on the process approach should have its organization defined by processes, not by departments. Have you seen one of those? A departmental hierarchy is antithetical to the process approach.
 
howste

howste

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#26
#26
Re: Is there a requirement for process approach internal audits in TS 16949?

Jim Wynne said:
A business based on the process approach should have its organization defined by processes, not by departments. Have you seen one of those? A departmental hierarchy is antithetical to the process approach.
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Jim, are you saying that a process-based heirarchy is required for a process-based system? I have always believed that it's possible to have functional groups coexist with processes.

Help me to understand your view. Let's look at the design process. The primary responsibility for the process would fall to those doing design work. Yet there are also those who are doing customer requirements review, purchasing, manufacturing, quality functions, etc. who are also involved in design. It's unlikely they would report to the design process owner. How would these relate in a business based on the process approach that you're proposing?
 
C

Caster

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#27
#27
Re: Is there a requirement for process approach internal audits in TS 16949?

howste said:
Jim, are you saying that a process-based heirarchy is required for a process-based system? I have always believed that it's possible to have functional groups coexist with processes. Help me to understand your view. Let's look at the design process. The primary responsibility for the process would fall to those doing design work. Yet there are also those who are doing customer requirements review, purchasing, manufacturing, quality functions, etc. who are also involved in design. It's unlikely they would report to the design process owner. How would these relate in a business based on the process approach that you're proposing?
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I am increasingly troubled by "quality" trying to force the business to adopt this idea of a process approach. I tried to advance my thoughts here, but made no head way.

http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=242479&postcount=10

I wonder how many companies are organized around a process vs. departments, my guess is very few. Not much wonder it is such a struggle to try to run these systems.
 
Last edited:
Stijloor

Stijloor

Staff member
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#28
#28
Re: Is there a requirement for process approach internal audits in TS 16949?

Caster said:


I am increasingly troubled by "quality" trying to force the business to adopt this idea of a process approach. I tried to advance my thoughts here, but made no head way.

http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=14403&page=5

I wonder how many companies are organized around a process vs. departments, my guess is very few. Not much wonder it is such a struggle to try to run these systems.

http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=14403&page=5
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A good question to ask is: "How many MBA programs include the Process Approach?"

Stijloor.
 
bobdoering

bobdoering

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#29
#29
Re: Is there a requirement for process approach internal audits in TS 16949?

Stijloor said:
A good question to ask is: "How many MBA programs include the Process Approach?"

Stijloor.
Click to expand...
My MBA was based on systems thinking, which for that time was pretty close to what is now the process approach in that it was evaluating the interrelationships between subsystems. In any event, I really do not see the issue of process approach and departments. Either the process is the departmental process, or the department interacts with a process as an input, part of the transformation or the evaluation of the process. I think the real problem is looking at the process as a simple linear I/O turtle diagram, when it is more like a blend of the turtle diagram and a Venn diagram (overlapping processes). But, often we boil the model down to the lowest common denominator to help make it understandable to a larger audience.
 
bobdoering

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#30
#30
Re: Is there a requirement for process approach internal audits in TS 16949?

Jim Wynne said:
The problem is that there's a difference between auditing via the process approach and auditing a single process. The former takes interactions of processes into account while the latter doesn't necessarily. TS16949 adopts the language of ISO 9001 (0.2) without adding anything to it. Thus both standards "promote" the use of the process approach but don't explicitly require it to be implemented. In reality, I've never seen a business, certified or otherwise, whose management system was based on the process approach.
Click to expand...
You are right, they did not use "shall" in 0.2, which surely diluted the impact of the message of the whole section, but I think you will find enough of the concept throughout the requirements to get the point of the expectation, starting with:

4.2.2 Quality manual
The organization shall establish and maintain a quality manual that includes
c) a description of the interaction between the processes of the quality management system.

Kind of hard to identify the interaction without identifying the processes...
 
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