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Process Approach Requirement for Internal Audits in TS 16949

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Big Jim

Super Moderator
#31
#31
Re: Is there a requirement for process approach internal audits in TS 16949?

Jim Wynne said:
A business based on the process approach should have its organization defined by processes, not by departments. Have you seen one of those? A departmental hierarchy is antithetical to the process approach.
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From ISO 9000:2005

3.4.1
Process
set of interrelated or interacting activities which transforms inputs into outputs

I don't see why a department can't fit into this definition.
 
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Peter Fraser

Peter Fraser

Trusted Information Resource
#32
#32
Re: Is there a requirement for process approach internal audits in TS 16949?

Caster said:


I am increasingly troubled by "quality" trying to force the business to adopt this idea of a process approach. I tried to advance my thoughts here, but made no head way.

http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=242479&postcount=10

I wonder how many companies are organized around a process vs. departments, my guess is very few. Not much wonder it is such a struggle to try to run these systems.
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What a great example of why we need to manage start-to-end processes, rather than just working in departmental silos. Of course functional divisions are needed to manage expertise and knowledge, and to provide a service to other departments, but work gets done by one department passing information or materials to another (or failing to, which is where problems arise) all along the chain of (eg) processing an order. It is not an "either/or" choice of what needs to be managed, but recognising how work is done as well as how costs and people need to be accounted for.
 
bobdoering

bobdoering

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Trusted Information Resource
#33
#33
Re: Is there a requirement for process approach internal audits in TS 16949?

Peter Fraser said:
What a great example of why we need to manage start-to-end processes, rather than just working in departmental silos. ...It is not an "either/or" choice of what needs to be managed, but recognising how work is done as well as how costs and people need to be accounted for.
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It is true that 'throwing things over the wall' certainly is not a good idea - generally the vision one gets with 'departmental silos' - but how a company is structured and managed (controlled) is more than a turtle diagram. It is dimensioned with available expertise and corporate culture. That does not discount the possibility that the management has picked an incorrect structure, either based on their limited knowledge and experience, or have not developed sufficient feedback to analyze the deficiency of their structure.
 
B

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#34
#34
Re: Is there a requirement for process approach internal audits in TS 16949?

bobdoering said:
It is true that 'throwing things over the wall' certainly is not a good idea - generally the vision one gets with 'departmental silos' - but how a company is structured and managed (controlled) is more than a turtle diagram. It is dimensioned with available expertise and corporate culture. That does not discount the possibility that the management has picked an incorrect structure, either based on their limited knowledge and experience, or have not developed sufficient feedback to analyze the deficiency of their structure.
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Truly, it is the management of the overall collection of processes, not just each individual processes, that is needed to have effective control of any organization. And you can read "control" as "manage". Control is one of the definitions of manage.
 
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LUV-d-4UM

Quite Involved in Discussions
#35
#35
The TS16949 standards require a process approach to internal audit. My question is this: Our customer service call center has been transferred to the Far East. How will it impact the TS 16949 Internal Audit. Please advise how I could manage the internal audit at remote location without incurring $$$$$ in travel expenses. Thank you.
 
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Big Jim

Super Moderator
#36
#36
LUV-d-4UM said:
The TS16949 standards require a process approach to internal audit. My question is this: Our customer service call center has been transferred to the Far East. How will it impact the TS 16949 Internal Audit. Please advise how I could manage the internal audit at remote location without incurring $$$$$ in travel expenses. Thank you.
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Retain the services of a local contract auditor?

Train people at the remote site to be an internal auditor?

Travel anyway and enjoy it as a vacation?
 
S

smajeti

#40
#40
Last year our external auditor wrote us up for not performing internal audits using the process approach. This year will be the first time that we peform this style of auditing.

I found a requirement in an older verison of the GM CSR (2003) - Section 4.1.10 which states that "Internal Auditors should be competent in understanding and applying the Process Approach of Auditing"

I don't have the latest copy of the GM CSR (2008) to confirm the requirement, but in my experience, this is something GM would not change.
 
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