Process Changes - Customer Notification Requirements

J

JIMO1972

#1
Hi All,

I have a question of interpertation,

Recently we had a piece of tooling break, this was for a small dedicated stamping machine that cuts a z shaped notch in the end of our part. Of course it will take 2 weeks to repair and we have customer demand for the products coming off that line next week. So the decision by our QM is that we will use an outside source to laser cut the notches in the part. So as the QE for this product I said that we would need to contact the customer about this change from an internal stamping process to an external laser process. She said not to inform them. She said she read the PPAP manual :applause: and here is her interpertation.

"Based upon my review and interpretation of the AIAG requirements. We are not making a permanent process change, and we are still following the original PPAP process flow that was submitted for customer approval. The process flow indicates cut notches, not the method that must be used."

I have had the customer on site to review the process first hand so they are well aware of what we are doing , and in my opinion this is a process change in construction and location which certainly warrants notification.

Any Insight would help. Am I missing something?, or How can I explain to my boss that her interpertation is wrong without arguing it with my interpertation.


Thanks for any help ,

Regards

JimO
 
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Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#2
Re: Process Change Notification

Jim, You must notify the Customer. You plan to change the process and outsource the work. Explain your situation to the Authorized Customer Representative. They will decide if you have to resubmit PPAP. I would not gamble on this. By the way, is your (laser cutting) supplier approved by you?

Best of luck. :agree1:
 

Mikishots

Trusted Information Resource
#3
Re: Process Change Notification

In total agreement with Stijloor - you must notify the customer. This is clearly required as you are changing the process as well as the location that this alternate process is being done. Makes zero difference if it isn't "permanent"; product will be flowing from this external processor to your customer.
 
Last edited:
J

JIMO1972

#4
Re: Process Change Notification

Yes its an approved source, we used them a few years ago to cut the prototypes. Im kind of stuck here, I told my boss I disagree, which didnt seem to matter. She then informed me that she discussed it with our CEO, and he agrees with her.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#5
Re: Process Change Notification

I understand your predicament. Get their decision in writing (you must cover your a$$) and let things fall where they fall. Good luck and keep your r?sum? sharp and up-to-date.

Good luck my friend! :agree:
 
J

JIMO1972

#6
Re: Process Change Notification

Thanks for the replies!!!, confirmed that Im not going insane. With 20 years in quality I really thought I knew the interpertation.

BEst Regards,

JimO
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#7
Re: Process Change Notification

To reinforce what others have already said, 3.1 (page 13) of the 4th edition PPAP manual says "The organization shall notify the authorized customer representative of any planned changes to the design, process or site." It goes on to give examples, but "examples" shouldn't be interpreted as including every possibility. It's clearly a process change.

You should also be aware if you aren't already that a person who knows what she's looking at will be able to tell the difference between a feature that's stamped and one that's laser cut.
 

Kales Veggie

People: The Vital Few
#8
Re: Process Change Notification

Stamping vs. Laser cutting is a huge process change, depending on the application and reliability requirements. Also more than likely your customer would NOTICE the change in appearance.

Why would your CEO / QM want to take that risk?

You must contact your customer. Why take the risk of not notifying?
 
J

JIMO1972

#9
Re: Process Change Notification

The reason the they want to take the risk is because the customer has been less than helpful , almost to the point of punitive, when we have had to ask for a deviation or process change in the past. And the timing it takes to get something approved through the customer(s) is longer than the 2 weeks it would take to repair the tool. So I understand their reluctance to go to the customer with the issue, but disagree with it.

Today the QM sent out a notice to the CEO & production engineering that I disagree with her interpretation of the requirement. And then said we will still move forward on her authority and that I WILL support the decision by working with the outsource to be sure their process is providing conforming parts.....
 
T

TShepherd

#10
I totally agree with all previous posts - do not be forced into trying to fool the customer.

Your leaving yourself and your organization wide open to liability should there be a failure in the field.

From personal experience I can say get them to agree to contact the customer - who will get a representative envolved who will tell you if it is ok to proceed or if there is any testing involved and or the requirements.

I was forced to do this on one occasion with the President of the company I still work - this turned into a sever argument where I stated that "I would not go to jail for them" - this happen to be a safety Item for an Automotive OEM - they relented and the situation calmed down.

PPAP is a contract between your organization and the customer - and from what I have read here - your company will be in clear violation for which you may be held accountable for in the event that something goes south.

Get at least an email from the CEO/Owner that states that they have made this decision in spite of your objections.

This is more than a violation of a contract - it will turn into a loss of faith by your customers = loss of business.

Good Luck,

Tom :whip:
 
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